Interesting......anybody else have heard this?
I left long ago. But sometimes, things get a bit slow and boring up here in heaven and the urge to post the truth about Siemens becomes to powerful to ignore. Sometimes I think it would be nice if we had just a few lawyers up here inside the pearly gates to create a little conflict and fun. Sadly, no lawyer has met the entrance requirements to date.
The residual employees in LA may have their hourly lattes, but up here, we have Chock-Full-o'-Nuts ... the heavenly coffee. And our nuts are better than the ones running Siemens. HA HA.
i get it - that is why i was trying to figure out who the customer was and who beat us.
stop bitching and leave, life is too short
You lost the contract the minute that Siemens decided to kill the Immulite product line. Who would want a system of the past with no future and, clearly, no interest on the part of the supplier? It doesn't matter at all who the winning competitor was. The Siemens strategy for Immulite was never a long term thing; it was simply to try to maintain the existing field population of instruments and gradually replace them with Centaur. Problem is, of course, that Centaur is also quite old, and everyone knows that recent projects to upgrade Centaur have ended in failure so there is little motivation on the part of customers to switch from one dead instrument line to another that is failing. Customers strongly prefer to deal with companies they perceive to be dynamic, growing, and adding new products that actually work. Siemens has been the exact opposite from day one and their reputation is starting to hit their bottom line as a big zero.
More and more labs want nothing to do with Siemens and they will find a similar disinterest when they try to find someone to buy or take the disastrous diagnostics unit off of their hands.
Where did we lose the 5 million immulite contract? Who beat us?
Call us haters if you wish. It won't change the facts. Nine years and not a single new product? This isn't about hate as much as it is about incompetence at Siemens DX. Who would have ever believed that Siemens would still be trying to fix up Vista after a decade? Haters? How about realists? Do you think that haters caused the dramatic decrease in market share that Siemens experienced since they got into the diagnostics business? Number one to number 4 in just 5 years. Such performance makes the New York Mets look like the New Yankees of the '40s and '50s.
The Siemens defenders have it all wrong. The division isn't suffering from a little hickey; it has a major staff infection. How do you cure that when you aren't even aware of the existence of antibiotics? It's not about haters; it's about total incompetence on the part of Siemens' management.
come on all you haters at there,cat got your tongue?
I love this site. Year after year,decade after decade the same hatred,doom,despair are repeated by all the same types,miserable,frustrated losers who feed on this stuff.
let's all blame Dave Hickey,lol
Fixing things in order:
ACA web site: A month and a half or so
Biofind web site: Several months and more than one long service lapse. Probably an ongoing effort.
Fixing Siemens DX: Are you kidding me. A forever project doomed to fail.
A modest proposal, a la Jonathan Swift: Siemens should just consider hiring Kathy Sebelius to run things. The above 'facts' seem to justify this cynical proposal.
biofind be back?????
Do you know what you sound like, a disgruntled ex-employee screaming fire.
In Siemens DX case, the term disgruntled ex-employee is probably a redundancy as, for the most part, is the term disgruntled employee.
This is basically what happens when someone finally sticks their head out from the sand and is unable to deal with the reality of their situation.
Who received notification of a 2014-2016 shutdown? Did someone say Brookfield.
But...but...we want facts? Centaur is drowning in backorder issues now. Immulite already removed 30 assays from its menu which could not be made to work again.
Oh, lets not forget about the $5million contract lost with Immulite as well.
Sales? You must have missed the meeting where management informed everyone how our competitors are killing DX. The slideshow was presented at all DX sites. You might have taken the day off.
A lot more things can be said here but it might be best to insert your head back into the sand before you totally freakout.
Happy New Year.
I would be happy to provide the same level of credentials that you do, first with some proof of whatever or whoever you say you are. In case you haven't noticed, this is a rumour mill, not a news service. There is no requirement here to reveal sources or to even double- or triple-check on information.
Some posts are from disgruntled employees for sure. Others could easily be from former employees with no personal ax to grind other than their disappointment at what Siemens has done with a company they remember fondly. Still other posts could simply be from industry observers who have no direct association with Siemens whatsoever.
When rumours turn out to be true, the source becomes fairly irrelevant. I remember a number of early posts suggesting that DPC and their product line would ultimately be shut down. There was much discussion of the wisdom of such a move and much finger pointing as to who made such an outrageously stupid decision. But the facts are there now. It is hard to argue that Siemens hasn't been trying to shut down Immulite an LA for years, nor is it hard to argue that Siemens has made a total mess of this attempt through their incompetence. This has nothing to do with anyone's level of gruntlement. It is just an example of a rumour or prediction that seems to have stood the test of time regardless of its wisdom or implementation.
As for employees who are not as gruntled as you would like, this state of mind is often justified and well earned by a company and Siemens is no different from any other company in this respect. Sometimes disgruntled employees are just bad actors and the company is blameless for their state of mind. Too bad. That's life. It comes with the territory of having employees. A good, healthy company can easily withstand the negative comments of a few bad actors. It is only the bad companies that get all freaky when bad things are said about it.
"The previous two posts have been the only sane postings I've read this whole Holiday Season.
If DX employee's aren't preparing themselve for a possible layoff or site closure they have no one to blame but themselves.
There will be layoffs and some sites were already given notice months ago of a 1-2year shutdown.
Believe what you want but the direction DX is heading is already out there and documented."
Do you know what you sound like, a disgruntled ex-employee screaming fire. So why don't you do siemens employees a favor and put your money where your mouth is by giving your credentials, who exactely got the shutdown notices, and where are all the documents you are basing your genious analyses on. Other wise put you foot in your month instead.
Siemens needs to concentrate on its core sectors.
Diagnostics is not one of them. I seriously doubt they'll sell Vista, Centaur and Immulite at a premium price though. They are aging lines and the sooner they download them the best price they will get.
I remember reading about Samsung getting into the Healthcare market a few weeks ago. They've already purchased into the Imaging field.
DX continues to lose ground against Roche, Beckman and several other companies. Analysts have already recommended Kaiser to either sell it or spin it off. It will boost the stock in a big way and supply additional cash for other Siemens sectors.
Regardless, I think much will come to fruition in 2014.
Remember that the sale of diagnostics has been documented through outside financial new stories, so it is hardly a rumor. If Siemens is really doing that well and is on an upswing with a promising new product in the very near future, they wouldn't be trying to unload the Edsel of diagnostics, now, would they?
Let's see. Healthcare's profit margin as 16%. DX was 8%. Still a higher margin than all 3 of the remaining Siemens secters.
Why would they sell off DX or healthcare?
Because they think they can sell it at a premium. Per bloomberg Siemens is trading at PE ratio of 19. Healhcare companies are at 24. So selling off heathcare or a part of it brings some cash, the new company will not be valued at the 'conglomerate discount', and siemens can focus on the remaining sectors.
Companies sell off good dvisiions all the time. Its just a question of goals and valuations.
I'm not even sure that Tarrytown has the right staff to comprehend and follow GMP. Much like LA, most of the talent in Tarrytown is gone. What remains in R&D are primarily a few old timers just waiting out the clock until they can retire or get a good package. Whatever motivation these people ever had is long gone and most of them are just going through the motions. The remainder are basically novices who are too young or inexperienced to get it.
And that is the real problem that Siemens faces. It isn't simply a tired old product line. It's the complete loss of scientific talent that led their former companies (DPC, Bayer-Technicon, and even Dade) to the former successes. Marketing and business people come and go and can often be replaced without any problems. But those who invent and develop new products are what the franchise is all about. And those kind of good people just don't grow on trees.
The more one analyzes today's Siemens diagnostics, the more dismal the picture appears to be.
I see your point.
I was referring to what LA is still doing now and when I had left a few years ago.
Much of their work is "raw material" processing for Llanberis which makes the finished product. I believe that's still the case now. AP Conjugations and Allergens are all that would eventually transfer out. Any and all Hybridoma work can be sourced out.
Still, I believe Tarrytown or other east coast Sites can handle this.
The point is that DX sites, not just LA, are major expenses and not needed. Certain east coast sites can also be consolidated as well.
Large problems will continue though. An aging diagnostic platform line, bad customer service and tech support plauge the division as customers continue to bail.
I don't see much of a win win situation here.
"Well, that's not the whole picture pal.......
"Tarrytown can take on much of the manufacturing done elsewhere."
I fully agree with your entire post except to the above statement. Tarrytown is not really equipped to be a manufacturing site. At one point, many years ago, it was the initial site for instrument manufacturing prior to complete transfer to Dublin and Puerto Rico, the latter of which was closed under the Bayer regime. For brief times, a few specialty chemicals were made in Tarrytown, but that hasn't been the case for years either. To my knowledge, Tarrytown is not a GMP qualified site, so it would take a significant effort to turn Tarrytown into a legitimate manufacturing site. Given Siemens' record to transferring manufacturing from one site to another (can you sspell Llanberis?) I wouldn't count on any success in such an endeavor.
For those visually minded:
Siemens DX "----v-----v------v---v-----------------"
The previous two posts have been the only sane postings I've read this whole Holiday Season.
If DX employee's aren't preparing themselve for a possible layoff or site closure they have no one to blame but themselves.
There will be layoffs and some sites were already given notice months ago of a 1-2year shutdown.
Believe what you want but the direction DX is heading is already out there and documented.
Nice try at the Siemens spin on things. Third best out of a group of four isn't terribly impressive, especially since Siemens was number one a few short years ago. Best part of healthcare? Just a relative, and meaningless number that is easily manipulated by accountants. New customers? Siemens seems to be better at creating the concept of new customers than it is at creating new products.
Look at the real record. Immulite on it's death bed and dying more every day (the Siemens attending physicians describe the situation as stable - lol). How many methods have already been withdrawn due to inability to supply, and, of those, have any been reintroduced? Vista still hasn't caught on or gained significant market share after 7-8 years. Way to go product support people. Centaur? Not even an upgrade since the Siemens takeover when it was already an old system product line. How many new methods have been introduced since the acquisition.
And now, more rumours of a new system. Odds are it isn't new at all, but a modification of what exists with a new 'sexy' skin and tons of market hype. As far as I know, the system has yet to be shown in public and, by industry standards, that would make it at least 1-3 years away from routine sales and usage. Maybe Siemens thinks it can sell the new system nonsense to some future investors in a vain attempt to sell diagnostics. (And by the way, the rumours of a sale are far stronger than the rumours of an imminent new, truly new, system). Siemens must think there are possible buys out there that are a naïve as they were when they fell of the 'almost ready for prime time' pitch from Bayer (remember the Advia IMS that was going to conquer the world for Bayer) and Vista from Dade. Let's hear about how profitable these 'new' systems are or were !!! Milking old products for all they are worth is hardly a strategy for the future.
I can only conclude, and I believe most knowledgeable people would agree, that the optimistic post was either from an extremely naïve employee or one of the corporate spin doctors, trying desperately to hold on for dear life until diagnostics can be sold. Remember that the sale of diagnostics has been documented through outside financial new stories, so it is hardly a rumor. If Siemens is really doing that well and is on an upswing with a promising new product in the very near future, they wouldn't be trying to unload the Edsel of diagnostics, now, would they?
Well, that's not the whole picture pal.
True, the stock is up but little or nothing of that is related to Immulite, Centaur or Vista.
Backorders in "check"? Really? Currently, Centaur, has more backorder issues than Immulite. Now that's a feat.
I do agree Siemens will not be selling off Healthcare. Maybe parts of it though. Imaging is doing fantastic and this is the part of Healthcare where Siemens excels. Diagnostics is so far down the ladder from sales against Roche and "word of mouth" is horrible for DX.
Now JK might spin off Healthcare mid 2014. It doesn't matter if Healthcare is either sold or pinned off...the consequences will be the same. Huge layoffs which are long overdue and site Closures.
Actually, certain sites should have been closed years ago.
Many labs, especially in US, are sending back DX platforms in droves. A $5Million contract was just lost months ago.
So parts of Healtcare are doing great. Diagnostics isn't one of them.
Many DX changes are slated for 2014. A year from now you can expect a much slimmer cost effective version.
Tarrytown can take on much of the manufacturing done elsewhere. It's not just going from #1 to #4 in six years but the gap between each rating. Currently Roches & Beckman are slaughtering DX and taking away customers on a quarterly basis.
"Word of Mouth" is everything and DX currently rates at bottom of list.
It didn't have to be this way but that's water under the bridge now. Once you lose a customer...they don't come back.
at least I am working making big money- unlike where you will be SOON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I understand this a rumor mill, but you guys make those rumors a little more believable that this. Yes, some investors have suggested to spin off the DX or healthcare but not because they are dying or not profitable. In fact, DX had the highest profit margin in ’13 of all the business units, despite the economy in Europe that kept the profit from being great, so some comments here to just shut it down are just stupid. We are talking about the third largest DX in the world. Just signed an agreement with Pfizer to do all their companion diagnostics, and two more huge contracts will be announced this year.
Centaur is still strong and the new platforms are in the M200 phase now. Backorders are in check, now that R&D is getting involved. JK is going to make a decision in June, and it would not be to shut it down. Have you checked the stock recently? Up by 30% for the year.
The whole property is a reminder of the days when Technicon could afford a site like they have and provide things like a subsidized cafeteria with fairly decent food, and a pretty good profit sharing thing with the employees. Management was rewarded with a group of creative and energetic employees who knew what teamwork was all about. It wasn't perfect and there were some fairly strange characters there, but it worked.
Almost a bit of paradise lost.
Sorry about the repeats, got a capcha error msg & thought the post didn't go thru
When I was at TT, we used to wander thru the woods during lunch. Large parts of the property had been a garden nursery at one time, and there were some amazing overgrown specimen plants to be found.
If Siemens does decide to simply abandon diagnostics (assuming no acceptable offer is made for it), it will be very interesting to see how they dispose of the Tarrytown property. As part of a conservancy, any building or other physical alterations would be very strictly limited for a future owner. It's a beautiful property, but with much unused space that cannot be further developed.
Siemens can sell off the Imaging Division and start shutting down the Centaur and Immulite groups. I seriously doubt they'll be able to sell them off unless as a bundle.
Immulite is long overdue for an "end of life" party. Apparently Centaur is now also having major backorder issues as well.
Siemens needs to get out of the Diagnostic business, bite the loss and move on.
I would expect 2014 to include many DX changes.
Samsung could make sense. It appears most of their Dx portfolio is not FDA approved so they may be looking at the portion of the current Siemens portfolio that gives them immediate access to the US market. Siemens POC is not a substantial portfolio, but it does have cardiac, A1c, blood gas, and urine chemistries. Perhaps Siemens would sell or close down their individual business lines as each one is a separate organization with its own CEO?
Samsung? that explains why we all got given crap Samsung phones!
Neurologica looks like primarily imaging.
But noticed this other Samsung subsidiary, Nexus Dx is developing POC immunoassay and chem analyzers.
So perhaps they would be interested in growing there POC line by aquiring Siemens POC, or expanding into central lab as well. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
For all the griping on here about centaur/immulite , you don't here much thoughts about SIemens POC.
Might it be attractive to a buyer?
That makes sense. Samsung aside, it is hard to imagine anyone being terribly interested in Siemens diagnostics. Why would anyone buy an organization that has gone from #1 to #4 in less than a decade, has lost most, if not all, of its talent (human intellectual property so to speak), and has nothing new in the pipeline? Other than the after market of a shrinking instrument base, what else does diagnostics have to offer?
Interesting. Noticed this line in the press release announcing Samsung's aquisition of Neurologica:
Samsung Electronics is committed to its 2020 vision to explore new avenues of growth in the healthcare business by enhancing medical imaging diagnosis, providing innovation to both patients and doctors.
If it's true Samsung is intereested in buying part of Siemens healthcare, looks like it would probably be the imaging side, not DX.
NeuroLogica appears to be primarily a CT scanner company with products that seem to overlap parts of Siemens' healthcare business. The NeuroLogica site does not seem to mention any type of chemistry analyzer and since many companies in diagnostics launch their products ex-US, I find it a bit surprising that they might have such a product under FDA review. It certainly appears that they have no products that currently require an after market of many chemical reagents or where they would have a fit with such a product and any Siemens diagnostics systems.
Stay tuned for more information and developments. This one could get interesting or, as the case with many things on this site, just another rumour.
Keep in mind, Samsung did buy NeuroLogica earlier this year. And they recently developed a POC chemistry analyzer that is at the FDA. It is feasible that they are moving in. However, I do not see them getting into the floor model Chem/IA arena.
Interesting post about Samsung. As an electronics company, one could conceive of some interest in portions of healthcare, but hard to see them having interest that depends primarily upon chemistry for revenue and profit. The most telling part of the post was the indication that Samsung appears to only be interested in parts of healthcare and, if the above is correct, and if Siemens were to sell only those parts of interest to Samsung, it would make getting rid of diagnostics that much harder. Yes, one can get rid of a lemon if the offer is sweetened with something good. Selling a lemon on it's own is much more difficult.
Samsung has made an offer with Siemens to purchase a percentage of its Healthcare Division. I don't know which parts though. JK will announce around June time the Siemens long term plan for Healthcare and which "assets" they'll be getting rid of.
An additional offer was made by an Investment Bank.
Merry Christmas Everyone!
Good Job Hunting in 2014.
I understand your point but even Siemens won't keep a product line going with only marginal returns and no future. As you said, no upgrades of any worth and Platforms as the Immulite are basically dead in the water. Centaur isn't far behind anymore. Here at Tarrytown, backorder issues have grown exponentially.
Siemens can only download Diagnostics as a Package deal with Healthcare. A company making the purchase would then consolidate what it wants and shutdown (or sell off cheaply) what it doesn't. As example would be how Siemens handled LA. Within a few years after purchase they shutdown and sent packing 90% of its employee's.
HR is running a dead horse and he knows it.
JK still might spin it off as a separate Siemen's entity and let it self destruct on its own.
No matter how you look at it, 2014 will be brutal for many people in DX US Sites.
HR keeps reiterating Siemens isn't selling Diagnostics but his boss, JK, is not backing him up in any interview or publication.
HR is correct. Siemens isn't selling diagnostics for reasons obvious to anyone who understands what's going on there. All the systems are old and represent marginal upgrades from the original successful systems like Dimension and Centaur. Immulite is not being supported whatsoever and is essentially an Orwellian non-system today. Add in the backorders. Then consider that almost all of the talent that created those systems and the reagents are gone. Ask yourself what you would pay for a company with no products worth selling and nothing in the pipeline. I can think of a nice round number (zero).
The only way that diagnostics gets sold is as part of healthcare and, to be honest, any knowledgeable buyer would negotiate to have diagnostics separated out from any purchase they might make of Siemens healthcare. Why would you buy a package, knowing that one part is going to be a drag on profits, a major headache in just about all respects, and a piece that you would want to kill off as one of your first actions.
In many ways, Siemens is pretty much stuck with the diagnostics lemon that they, through their unique incompetence, they created all by themselves.
It's a real dilemma for Siemens which is why no one can get a straight answer about it from MR or anyone else. Siemens management must be at their (nit)wits end with respect to diagnostics.
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