Here is one example:

http://www.ngsp.org/CAP/CAP12a.pdf

The first place to look would be something like national proficiency survey data which usually includes the number of labs reporting for each analyte and each system. CAP is one example of such data. There are other national surveys as well, ex-US.

It is easy to get data that shows relative market share (by segment or even by analyte) in various countries so anyone can pretty much find out independently how well Siemens or any of the competition is doing.

Please, share that data. I'd like to see it. For once I would like to see some data, *any* data to back up all the talk....

Crow all you want, but hearing internal internal propaganda is somewhat meaningless and unimpressive. It is easy to get data that shows relative market share (by segment or even by analyte) in various countries so anyone can pretty much find out independently how well Siemens or any of the competition is doing. And, quite frankly, placing systems is not very impressive without seeing what the reagent consumption per system is. Diagnostics is still pretty much a razor blade business (make money on the after-market consumables).

always love reading the non-sense on here. no sales ehh? i wonder why we're hiring more people to keep up with the installations then. seems odd doesn't it. automation installations scheduled out fully for 8 months right now. chemistry and ia going with all of those. more hemotology installs than i care to think about. get real people.

Congratulations to you on your 'triumph'. From the Siemens point of view, giving you a package was still a smart economic move. Who needs a sales force when they have nothing worthwhile to sell. Siemens is just marking time now and trying to stay above water until the new Siemens diagnostics emerges from the rubble. I suspect that, for the near term future, the goal is to avoid losing any more money rather than pure growth. They are like an investor during bad times who moves his money from stocks to either bonds or money markets.

WOW am I glad I was one of the lucky few that got packages in the Sept/Oct reorganization of Diagnostics.

All I hear from my former peers is that the Siemens organization has no clue of what they are doing and the new structure is not working. Siemens Diagnostics is losing business hand over fist and the moral of the remaining sales force is in the dirt. They are having a hard time filling positions from those that could no longer take the chaos. Positions remain open for months on end due to the fact that anyone in the industry, internal or external, will not take the positions. The few they have hired are directly from the lab and have no sales training or technical knowledge of the Siemens products. They will end up spending the next 6 months or more in Siemens indoctrination and training classes and then be sent out "drive the business". Good Luck with that strategy.

Again I was extremely lucky, I had already made plans to leave Siemens in 2013 when the reorganization plans were rolled out. Siemens gave me a tremendous severance (retirement) package that I would not have received if I had resigned as planned this last January.

Thank you Siemens!!!

MR may be focusing elsewhere. MR may not look good to the troops, but he may look better to Germany. However it was done, things stabilized last year. The bleeding has stopped. The large expected layoff did not materialize which further suggests that diagnostics' performance was acceptable last year. And the possibility exists that diagnostics' future may not lie with their existing facilities. Rumours of a new system persist and yet it seems to have little visibility to most. And since Siemens has never hesitated to outsource things, anything is possible. For those who are still there, I'd keep my eyes and ears open.

Apologize for the deadwood comment. But there are so many around they need to start selling Ensure at the cafeteria.
I did hear Centaur is probably the best of the three (which isn't saying much). I haven't followed Immulite since that's mostly a westcoast commodity but it's well known in Tarrytown they are having significant reagent problems including the Wales Plant.
Good for you in getting out early. I'm out no later than June this year. Best decision I've made in several years.
Siemens should have packaged off the deadwood 7 years ago. Huge and costly mistake.
Funny how MR is hardly seen or heard from anymore either.

Hey I ain't no dead wood. I escaped the asylum many years ago.

Immulite will go first. That was always the plan.

Vista will never go since it never was nor will it ever be.

Centaur will hang on for a while and perhaps evolve into a future Siemens platform if they ever make it that far. It's just hard to see that far into the future with all the fog at Siemens. And they still have the FDA watching them like n hawk.

Ha Ha
Sounds like another deadwood checking in.
Vista, Centaur or Immulite...lets see which one goes first.

A dead horse? I think not. You are just a neigh sayer.

(Wink)

If you're referring to employment...you're nuts.
If you're referring to a package...it sucks anyway.
Besides, already had 3 interviews this past month with 2 offers on the table. Haven't decided yet but each was over 10% more pay than Siemens and included overtime pay.
Probably within one year the only employee's left at DX will be deadwood anyway. Have you checked the backorder listings lately?
Have you seen how many kits are already removed from assorted platforms...and continue to do so.
DX is a dead horse.

Probably the best you ever had or are likely to get.

----- Benjamin Dover

There is rumor that layoffs are on the cards
END QUOTE

Well, one can only hope.
At my site alone most of the people remaining just want a package and say "goodbye" to this pitiful example of a diagnostic company.
Young talent already left for greener pastures.
Mostly just deadwood remains and getting any work out of them is harder than squeezing water from a stone. I loved the old Tarrytown days.
Even MR keeps a low profile. He's used up his bag of tricks and still gives Siemens lackluster return on the dollar.
The guys who made the money on selling Bayer, Dade and DPC are laughing their heads off.
They could not have played it any better. Basically Siemens screwed itself with due diligence not worth a penny.
So let the whiners whine. Just deadwood waiting for a package and retirement. Obamacare will be screwing the rest of us anyway.

are Alex G and the historian software still in Flanders?? what Dave stein is doing in Flanders... is he still baby sitting his puppet Roy?

For many, yes, but not for all. A lot of large companies still have spirit.

Isn't this just par for the course st ANY big company?!

There are both whiners and whinees here. There are some who don't really whine as much as they ask about or spread rumours. There are a few who attempt some critical analysis of what is going on at Siemens and try to explain it. The one thing that we probably can agree upon is that Siemens has little in the way of talent, be it on the science or business side. We can probably agree that the average employee energy level is fairly low and that motivation and a feeling of being a part of a vibrant team is pretty much absent. Whatever talent existed that made DPC, Bayer, and Dade worth buying was either gone before the acquisition (the Z's at DPC, for instance).

However, this reality is not necessarily a death knell for Siemens DX. A case can be made that DX is no longer in a growth phase or a phase in which great innovation is necessary for success. Most of the products and assays are pretty much standardized among all the major players in the business (e.g., they are 'commodities') and there would be little benefit or need to develop a better glucose method, for instance. Similarly, instrumentation has evolved to a level in which it is hard to envision significant improvement that would lead to a competitive advantage. So a case can be made for not needing the kind of R&D people that were needed 20 or 30 years ago. Sure, there will be new methods that come along and a company like Siemens can make a case for contracting out the development rather than maintaining its own full time staff. Whether this is how Siemens sees things is a matter for debate, but their actions have been consistent with the above proposition. And, if true, it would not be surprising that many employees are unhappy, bored, unmotivated and prime candidates to be whiners.

Just a bit of food for thought.

so you agree with me. A great majority of the employees who post here are dead wood. Constant whiners.

Whether or not Siemens or any other company relocates to China is completely independent of any attempts by Chinese companies to clone existing products. You are right. This is not rocket science and the only real barrier to entry into diagnostics is sufficient capital to pay for instrument, software and reagent development, and possibly a few licenses for specific technology.

why keep talking about China? If DX to relocate to China, not long the Chinese will make good copies and branded as made by Chinese with advanced German technology at half the price (it's not an MRI, for G's sake).

but here's the silver lining: once relocated, DX will die sooner, then peace for everyone.

Leaving and changing jobs is relatively easy for outstanding performers. However, when it comes to dead wood, most have little initiative, a trait necessary to make a move. People with kids in school are also reluctant to relocate as are people who are close to retirement. It is easy to say: if you don't like it here, leave and find something else. If is far less easy to do that when you are not very good, when you have little initiative, or when you get older.

As for Siemens closing facilities, they can't even close the most obvious one; the one that is clearly not a part of their future ... namely LA. The can't seem to eliminate old, redundant systems with the exception of Immulite which is still out there, still needing service and a supply of reagents that Siemens is having a terrible time in production.

As bad as this all sounds, there is a good possibility that Siemens future is not in LA, not in Glasgow, and not in Tarrytown. There is nothing about diagnostics that requires to to be headquartered in the US there is nothing terribly unique about American workers that Siemens cannot replace in a much lower cost environment. I am not talking about some kind of relocation to Germany, since Germany is hardly a low cost country when it comes to salaries, etc.

We keep hearing that Siemens made its numbers last year because of their positive activities in China and the big effort they are putting into China.

So, put two and two together and you might see one possible course for the future of Siemens DX that is very different than the more obvious consolidation to a single US site.

Can you say 診斷的總部將設在中國? Ja oder nein?

so why do you all keep beating the same horse? If DX is such a loser why not just move on instead of wasting all this energy with the same comments year after year?

Forget it.
I left along with many hard working people. My old site now consist of mainly deadwood waitng to retire or be offered a package and youngsters who haven't learned their lesson yet.
I agree with your list though. Wasting money on unnecessary employee's and Site locations just bout says it all regarding DX.

Despite what you've heard (Siemens propaganda machine) there are jobs out there just waiting for hard working people. I'm at a much smaller lab now and so much happier. I actually feel part of a team now and have a much brighter future.
Stay at DX and you have nothing to look forward too.

If DX is to survive it needs to start taking itself seriously.
1)Cut unprofitable instrumentation.
2)Cut workforce to an acceptable level with respect to amount of work being done.
3)Shutdown sites no longer necessary.

Losing profits is easy, do nothing. This has been Siemens gameplan the past 6years. You would think a lesson would have been learnt already.
Even MR is rarely seen anymore.
Just a shame to what "could" have been an industry diagnostic juggernaut simply sink into oblivion.
Might have looked good on paper but this ship has left port and sunk.

Who is Sheldon Cooper? He is not I.

I enjoy your speculation.

blah blah Sheldon Cooper, super nerds

How sad to the complete collapse of Tarrytown. The beautiful facility there was built on the immense successes of AutoAnalyzer, SMA, and SMAC. Ever since the days of the bubble and continuous flow, things have gone downhill. The RA Systems were certainly a success; at one point there were close to 4500 systems operating in the field. But rather than build on the success of RA technology, ego took over and took Technicon/Revlon into the nightmare known as Chem 1 (or Chem when). This was followed by Immuno 1 which, to be honest, was mildly successful, but had problems competing with far less expensive systems such as the Corning ACS-180. (Corning sold its DX business to Chiron who followed up the ACS with Centaur and Technicon/Bayer eventually bought Centaur from Chiron rather than try to extend the Immuno 1 product line). Next came the attemt by Technicon/Cooper to outsource two chemistry systems, DAX and AXON, neither of which was much of a success. Bayer then proved to the world that they could be even worse than Chem 1 by spending over half a billion dollars on Advia IMS (I'm-a-mess). A total disaster, that can only make people laugh at those who complain about government waste while remaining ignorant of corporate waste. IMS was actually launched, but never made it at all. Gen-a-mess was even worst; it never even made it to launch. During these years of decline, Tarrytown lost virtually every employee who had brought them success in the first place. Some left for greener pastures, some retired, and many were laid off over the years. There is nothing left now except a nice physical facility that is grossly under-occupied and seems to be doing nothing in the way of new or improved systems. The only thing that appears to be going on in Tarrytown is patching up some problems with existing systems, introducing a few new methods now and then, and remembering the glory days and wondering where they went. There have been rumours of a new system or a Trinidad project, but it is really hard to find anyone who knows anything concrete about this new system. Add to all of that, a declining base of Immulite systems and significant Immulite reagent manufacturing problems, the basic failure of Vista to gain a foothold in the market, and all of the FDA woes and one wonders how Siemens could possibly sell diagnostics to anyone who conducts even a cursory due diligence.

Exactly!

I've worked at several other companies and, after two years at Siemens, I can honestly say they haven't a clue as to what they're doing. Contacts at other companies (Roche, etc.) constantly thank me for sending new customers their way.
I plan on being out of here by December. It's just not worth sticking around as this place sinks.

On the other hand, Siemens may not really care.
END QUOTE

They don't.
Tarrytown, Flanders, LA, etc...never integrated and the cost of running each operation overshadows quarterly gains. In fact, any and all quarterly profits is so far below the anticipated profit margins set 6 years ago it's a wonder they haven't diminished, cut and shutdown certain sites and leaned out the employee base.
At Tarrytown this has been a topic of discussion by employee's on a daily basis.
R&D at other company's continues to make us look foolish. Our product line is old and all we do is facelift our instruments every two years or so.
It's absolutely amazing.

There really are very few people left at Siemens that have high market value. Most of the ones who were there at the acquisition have left, been laid off, or retired. Siemens does seem to have some problems and just making the whiners go won't solve the problems. And creating an environment of conformity generally does not fix internal problems. It hasn't fixed the basic Tarrytown culture problem in 30 years and it won't fix it for Siemens now.

On the other hand, Siemens may not really care. There is a scenario in which Tarrytown will not be a part of diagnostics' long term future in which case, none of this matters whatsoever.

RIGHT ON!

I say do your job and shut up or just leave, if anyone else wants you losers,probably not

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I don't think that will happen unless they first sell off the pieces of healthcare they don't want anymore (or ever did). Right now DX is a major revenue loss and disappointment for Siemens.
They won't take the risk of excalating the situation unless they cut some of the bleeding now.
I think they'll sell off the rest of DPC (Immulite Division) and consolidate it's facilities (LA and Glasgow) to one in Tarrytown. Glasgow does minimal Immulite R&D anyway. Glasgow will then strictly be a Vista facility.
I'm expecting all this to start taking place before end of January.
Much of what they still do can be outsourced anyway.

What I'm not seeing is that Siemens may be purchasing the rest of Bayer Diagnostics. There are many signs pointing that way. I'm not sure I believe it, but supposedly we will know Nov.1

You forgot that Siemens is also good at supplying their competitors with good employees.

I'm glad someone finally figured that out.
Of the three companies, DPC, lost the most. In essence it lost everything. The small portion remaining will be lost shortly as well.
The Bayer and Dade sides also took hits but small by comparison.
When Michael R.'s restructuring fails, and it will miserably, both Bayer and Dade will be hit with significant cuts as well.

This was a game Siemens never should have played. They knew nothing of diagnostics and after five years, still don't.
The only thing they've learnt is how to lose money.

Seems everybody at DX has some attitude. with that in mind, I just don't see the new "restructuring" would go anywhere.

It really doesn't matter what we like name calling each other, because in the eyes of Roche, Bayer Pharm, JRA, Ziering's, you name it, we're all losers.

"Personally, I could care less about LA. Only 200 losers anyway. A mere spit in the bucket."

Chewing VitD cup cake that LA threw up, what a loser...

I WANT MY CUPCAKE
I WANT MY CUPCAKE
I WANT MY Vit.D CUPCAKE

Trust me, this is nothing to celebrate.
Finally finishing your resume...now that's something to CELEBRATE!

Where does it say DX will have a chance after LA shutsdown.
Most of the posts say all sites will be hit by layoffs within a few months.
Personally, I could care less about LA. Only 200 losers anyway. A mere spit in the bucket.
I'm expecting layoffs here on east coast by January.
So this week I'll get my Vit.D "cupcake".
Oh joy.
People at Roche must be having a field day.

"This week we'll celebrate Vit.D on Centaur release."

It's hilarious to use word "celebrate" at Siemens DX.

It's also funny that people tend to repeatedly mention shutdown of LA whenever restructuring was brought up. You guys are still in denial, they knew for a fact that LA is such old story and it's considered gone already for most people. But in reality, they just keep talking about it as if DX would have a chance to finally celebrate when LA shuts down.

Keep saying LA shutdown doesn't mean elsewhere at DX will survive, just like keep saying other people are losers doesn't mean you're not.

It's 5am and getting ready for my shift at Tarrytown. Thought I'd take a look online and was surprised to see this thread. Didn't know it existed.
Well, what I know is this. People are definitely expecting something to happen soon. By soon I mean over the next few months.
Business wise this DX has been one huge mess.
People here are always talking about finally shutting down LA also.
A strange group out there anyway.
This week we'll celebrate Vit.D on Centaur release. It'll make money but not enough to keep us all employed here.
Last time Siemens Management came here they basically hinted in our Town Hall of changes coming soon.
They weren't smiling either.

"...and all of you beaker brains know this how?"

You must have been sleeping the past several months.
Every Director at CrossPoint already knows the proposed gameplan. The new site head, Anadelle, was brought in as Don's replacement since she already has retirement plans in place.
David D. knew all this over a year ago.
I guess you don't have any contacts in DX-LA.
Good thing for you the mill is here.

Whatever your problems were with DPC and Sid that's all water under the bridge. Both are long gone and Sid is going just fine.
But Sid definitely would have run things totally different and kept all three (Dade, Bayer and DPC) profitable for Siemens.

Major changes are coming including mandatory Town Halls with Siemens Management expressing "sorry" in letting people go and disappointment in how badly DX has performed.

and all of you beaker brains know this how?

F DPC and Sid A

Any restructuring plan should cut at least half of VPs, directors, and managers. Only let staff go won't solve the problem.

They already are.
During the past several quarters of Michael R. video's he made it a point in stating they're losing customers to Roche every quarter.
His "new" reorganization will fail miserably. All it is was simply re-shuffling people around.
Five years ago if they would have put Sid A. in charge it would be a totally different ballgame now.
For now Siemens will just have to take the loss as they begin selling off parts of Healthcare and shutting down sites.

Ask anyone whos worked on one, the centaur is a dog of an instrument good luck to Siemens going with the worst instrument in the marketplace. Beckman,Roche and even Abbott will be getting some new customers