Siemens DX is far from ending its employee layoff schedule and it's rumored most sites will once again be hit before end of 2012.
USA-Sacramento was just hit and we in the UK were told pending layoffs will start here by next week.
The madness continues.

Yes, we have taken over this

Yes, we have taken over this thread for political posturing but lets just wish everyone, and yes liberals too, a Merry Christmas and great New Year!

It's too nice a national holiday season to quibble about this stuff over hot turkey, that's for sure.

Please please please stop the

Please please please stop the political

So, he starts posting at

So, he starts posting at spaced intervals to try and make it look like multiple people posting Siemens related DX stuff to shift the conversation away from losing position he was trying to hold.

Liberals you see, go batty when faced w/ reality and a strong position from the right. Sorry but your take on life and politics is indeed wrong headed. At least, that is, if we are looking at it from the long term aspect and not from the "what's in it for me, now" attitude.

I just did a major meeting

I just did a major meeting with them in Chicago... wow talk about clueless: the company is filled with lifers and their lackeys. God bless their soul if the need to find a real job outside of their crumbling castle.

Fascinating post considering that an almost identical post appears on one of the Ventana threads. Could this be a mistake or just someone having some fun with nervous employees at several companies.

(And you thought no one was paying attention)

For those who might think

For those who might think that a sale of diagnostics will bring good things because things can't possibly get much worse, I refer you to anyone who has been in Tarrytown for a long time.

Once upon a time, Tarrytown was the king of clinical chemistry, owning around 70% of the market. The company was run by the Whiteheads and was called Technicon. In 1980, the bubble burst. Jack Whitehead wanted out and wanted something new for the last part of his life and sold Technicon to Revlon. And things got worse. It was under Revlon, that Technicon beat their heads against the wall to try to make Chem 1 a success. They never did.

In 1987 or so, Revlon sold out to Cooper. And things go worse. The Cooper wheelers and dealers made arrangements with two Japanese instrument manufacturers as a quick way to get new instruments that could use existing Technicon reagents. Neither system worked well enough to make it as a commercial success.

In 1989, Cooper sold out to Bayer. And things got a lot worse. Bayer refused to support the two Japanese systems (DAX and AXON) and they soon died in the field. Bayer then went on to show their uber-arrogance by creating the Advia IMS (I'm-a-Mess) black hole that sucked up roughly a billion dollars in R&D investment for a system that never worked.

Then Bayer sold out to Siemens. And, believe it or not, things got even worse. IMS died rapidly in the field, Vista is diagnostics tribute to Dennis Weaver (the supporting character, Chester, on Gunsmoke) as it continues to limp along. The big attempt to extend the Centaur product line failed before it got to the field. Bottom line during Siemens tenure: no new systems and virtually no new assays.

And you think it can't get worse? "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. ... Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them." -- George Santayana

The only way Siemens can get

The only way Siemens can get rid of diagnostics is to bundle it as part of the sale of healthcare. It is almost impossible to imagine anyone wanting to buy diagnostics as a stand alone business, especially after Siemens has decimated whatever value ever existed and set all sorts of industry records in dropping from first to fourth (in what is basically a four-horse race).

Best of luck to those who remain. You will surely need it.

So any new products coming

So any new products coming from DX in 2014?
Same old "black Coal" platforms and kits?

Selling Healthcare off might be the wisest thing Siemens has done in seven years.

I just did a major meeting

I just did a major meeting with them in Chicago... wow talk about clueless: the company is filled with lifers and their lackeys. God bless their soul if the need to find a real job outside of their crumbling castle.

So, are we borrowing 40 cents

So, are we borrowing 40 cents of every dollar you spend Mr Liberal?

It would really give you an idea of how dumb our current big man really is, and how much he has screwed up this countries future.

Has anyone heard anything new

Has anyone heard anything new about the subject matter of this thread? Layoff rumours? Site closings? Consolidation? Any new systems or other products? Anything further on Siemens selling off all of healthcare and it's potential impact on diagnostics?

Anything at all relevant to Siemens? If not, let's condemn this thread to the oblivion it deserves. There are plenty of other relevant Siemens threads here. It seems that this thread has become a personal argument between a couple of pompous trolls.

"My only wish for you is that

"My only wish for you is that you develop a serious chronic illness, the costs of which will exceed your health insurance lifetime or annual limits and the ongoing costs completely wipe you out financially, thus depriving your poor needy children and grandchildren of an unearned inheritance.

You have nothing to contribute but anger, frustration, hatred"

Folks, he is calling me mean and angry! You see, the envy and energy you waste on other people's wealth is just plain dumb. I have nowhere near a billionaire's wealth, but I have zero want for him to lose or have it somehow re-distributed. It is HIS FREAKING MONEY! I HAVE NO SAY IN HIS TREMENDOUS FORTUNE. And neither do you.

Yes, I do disagree with almost all of your ideals and interpretation of the data, but I certainly do not wish the worst for you. In fact, I post here because I am trying to help you! Well, specifically young folks who are reading this. You see, for us conservatives who deal w/ the liberal mindset, we are indeed confused and unable to decipher the liberals take on life. Somebody, somewhere in the family tree has to do the dirty work for the ball to get rolling. If the ball happens to land on your lap w/ no inherited wealth, then by golly you are the unfortunate one who has to get it going! At least, if you have the right conservative mindset at a young age, you will have a lifetime to do the deed. And when the founding father figure leaves behind his life's work, it is on him to make sure the ones inheriting the "ball", don't F--K it up! Most do this fairly well, because it is in the mindset. The Paris Hilton's of the world are actually the exceptions, otherwise America would not still have the world wide lead.

But as you may gather, we fear that the lead is indeed slipping away. Thanks to the liberals and their 1 year ahead planning strategies.

One of the biggest problems is that we are not using the same directives for our strong beliefs and politics (meaning liberals/ conservatives). Conservatives want to reward responsible behavior, and not reward slovenly behavior. If young folks are raised w/ the idea that social safety nets and government largess is earned simply because of citizenship, we are a lost country. Just take a huge group of the able minded/ bodied welfare recipients (yes, we can include equal numbers of blacks and whites) and set them up with their own country full of natural resources. In a few decades do you really think they would build upon a thriving city-state? Of course not, their mindset would not allow them the abilities to strive and succeed.

Applying the same situation for a group of minimum wage earning conservative kids w/ no financial or educational advantages, and what do you think you would have in a few decades? It will certainly be a lot more than the welfare group would have.

We are out to change the liberal mindset, one little person at a time; and this one is taking a very, very, very long time.

Everything bad in the world

Everything bad in the world is due to liberals.

You are completely boring and, since you offer nothing except epithets and derogatory personal remarks, there is no point in further engagement. While some of your crazy analyses of data are funny and entertaining, your rudeness and meanness, to say nothing of your close minded attitude, makes you a useless opponent.

My only wish for you is that you develop a serious chronic illness, the costs of which will exceed your health insurance lifetime or annual limits and the ongoing costs completely wipe you out financially, thus depriving your poor needy children and grandchildren of an unearned inheritance.

You have nothing to contribute but anger, frustration, hatred, and a fair bit of racism. Please feel free to keep posting here by yourself. Playing with yourself seems to be your most useful activity.

From recent articles, the US

From recent articles, the US has fallen into the 20-30's in math and science vs the rest of the world. We have always been near the top decades ago, so what happened?

For liberals the screaming is about more money should be spent on education, while quoting all kinds of money statistics. While doing so, they completely neglect the data showing private schools spending roughly 1/2 as much per student and getting far, far better results. Many foreign counties also do not spend exorbitant amounts yet get far better results. Why?

The liberals would say spend more money and give kids more encouragement by social promotion and affirmative action, while treating all students the same. Does this sound eerily parallel to healthcare in many respects? Reward those who put zero effort and compromise those who work hard, while throwing more money at the problem, by raising taxes of course.

Good old liberalism in action. Too bad the effects are often seen decades down the road and by then you have an embedded populace feeling and assuming that they are indeed working hard and just need more funds to do better. Hogwash.

We are being led down the road to destruction by slovenly behavior encouraged and abetted by the liberal left. Not everything on the conservative side is a well and dandy, but what good in the very long run has any of this liberal left garbage done for the general good of the country? Rap? Pants worn down at the knees? Cheerleaders the pride of the school? athletes worshipped as gods?
Religion reduced to mockery? (I am not god fearing by the way), kids using 4 letter words as part of the everyday dialog? School lunches? (just who in the hell thought of this one?), Graffiti revered as art?, etc, etc.

And you fools actually like the liberals making the rules and laws for this country?

God help my grandkids.

Finally, what are your ideas

Finally, what are your ideas to fix the healthcare system that existed in 2008?

That's just the point, it was fine the way it was. No immediate "solutions" as you call it were necessary! Not perfect but most of us were fine with the care we were getting. The dumb guy just needed to leave it alone and attack the problem at it's source and not try in a moments notice (w/o even reading the ACA document!) to overhaul 20% of the US economy. He and the Pelosi's of the world were just not qualified to do so. He wanted this to be the signature accomplishment for his administration, and he certainly got his wish, but hardly the way he imagined it to turn out; it is turning out to be his signature "embarrassment". You know this is true when Dem's needing to get re-elected, are distancing themselves from the ACA and Obama. Ha! Shows you how clueless the guy was. Bit off far more than he could chew.

Of course liberals have trouble with defining were the problems really are. Can you?

Deleting illegals take from the system (excepting true emergency care of course) would save ~$10 billion + a year. But guess who is always fighting for illegals rights to every conceivable benefit our government can dole out? Not only would this take an immense burden off the system, it would discourage illegal immigration. The tremendous back bending fostered by liberals to fund more and more welfare benefits also is responsible for huge portions of health care aid that is perpetual. Tough love would breed self sufficiency and a responsible level of parenthood, all issues heavily affecting the system. These two thngs alone would eventually make healthcare far more solvent in this country in the long run.

The one area in which I feel we should give the population a break on, concerns the working individuals w/ existing conditions that have been denied coverage by insurance companies. They should be allowed to purchase policies with perhaps a very modest increase in premiums (while the rest of us share their burden), but have generous coverage for their medical issues. We can all understand the seriousness of their plight and any of us could be in that situation at any time. They need to be taken care of.

So my solution that you so desperately need to hear of vs the ACA?

It is so simple it begs to be jabbed into the side of every nut who voted this guy into office on that hollow "I promise you that every household will save $2,500 a year under the ACA" campaign BS.
Heathcare in the US should have been left alone, and the problems affecting its bottom line should have been corrected first before any political legislation attempted. Tort reform also.

Of course that would have required liberals to admit F-ing up the countries political correctness/ finances and start a decades long backtracking before any real benefits could be realized. Far to long for any election/ power struggle benefits, so that is why they are not the least bit interested.

I hope you realize the faulty

I hope you realize the faulty reasoning in one of your arguments. The fact that the government pays for healthcare for some people is completely independent of how much the per capita costs are. Do you really think that providers care who pays their bills as long as they get paid? This is a perfect example of how you take data and twist it all around into some false argument to support your hostility to ACA.

If your argument made any sense, then by extrapolation, food prices in the US would be much higher than in Europe due to the government program called SNAP (food stamps). In reality, food is far more expensive in Europe where it's costs are not subsidized to nearly the extent they are in the US. (Oops, I bet you never thought of that when you were 'analyzing' the healthcare data.)

And, again .... what is it that you propose assuming ACA were to be totally repealed? Nothing, as usual, I presume. Do you realize how much of a loser you make yourself by just criticizing with no solutions?

Nice try. Let's see. Since

Nice try. Let's see. Since 1980, conservative Republicans have held the WH for 20 years; Democrats 13 years. So much for your 'it's all the liberal's fault' BS.

Nothing that you wrote explains why a particular pill costs twice as much in the US as it does in Europe.

I have never supported government benefits for people here illegally. You must have confused me with your fantasy scapegoat.

It sounds like what you are saying is that rich people in the US get just as good healthcare as Europe if not better, and it's only the poor that drag our results down. I could infer from your statement that you approve of the idea of two levels of healthcare and two classes of American. I find that kind of thinking to be extremely un-American.

Finally, what are your ideas to fix the healthcare system that existed in 2008? You have none, I know, but I will continue to hit you hard on this one. The repeal and replace fraud that you and your fellow Tea Party-Republicans were promoting last year in the Romney campaign was a clear lie since all we have seen since 2012 is repeal, repeal, repeal, with zero proposals for replace. If you owned a business, would you pay employees to do things that can't possibly be finished, and do it over and over again? No way. Yet, Tea-Republicans have tried to repeal ACA almost 50 times with zero change of their attempts getting through the Senate let alone be signed by the President. If the House were my 'company' I'd fire them all for incompetence and wasting my money and, in a private setting, I'm sure you'd do the same.

I expect another posting of your whining about 'the problem'. I can't possibly imagine that you actually have any solutions. (Could you at least throw in some of your racist ideas for my amusement?)

Well, anyone who knows

Well, anyone who knows anything about healthcare in the US knows that it is a Pandora's box of nightmarish confusion.

And comparing the USA stats to European or Asian 1 st world countries is bogus. Most of these countries have a far, far more homogeneous population and do not carry anywhere near the welfare state ( never mind the illegals!) that the US has. Throw in illegal aliens whom we are forced by our own courts to provide education/ healthcare for and you skew the numbers all over the place. Here is a hard number for you, since you like hard documented data; it is estimated that illegals cost the healthcare system at least $10+ biliion a year. Since only a shade more than 50% of the US population pays taxes, the majority of the balance of those people who do not pay taxes need government assistance for their healthcare needs (Medicare). I forget the number, but it is absolutely enormous.

So you wonder why the US system is so expensive and inefficient? When you throw billions worth of healthcare each year to people who pay zero for it, the rest of us are going to be paying $3,000 a day for emergency beds. It really doen't cost anywhere near this price; this is what they charge to offset all the freebee care they have to dispense. So do not rant that we are charged way too much for band aids and aspirin, that's not what you are paying for. You are paying the bills for non-paying patients.

The liberal policies of the last several decades have also sustained and in fact encouraged, the welfare state to expand. After all, with all the help guaranteed so freely by the government according to the number of dependent children in the family, isn't that like an unlimited charge card for life?

We also, in the US, are the most obese (well maybe except for the UK!) in the world and we also do the least amount of exercise on a reg basis. Think that might hurt the numbers? You see how numbers can lie?

Another hard number for ya; Asians in the US have an average life expectancy of 87 years which would put them at the top of the worldwide list. So if the US has such a shitty health care system why are Asians doing so well? The amswer is their numbers are not skewed by a bunch of numbers generated by a bunch of lowlifes in their group. Even compared to us Whites, they seem to drink less, use less drugs, stay trimmer, exercise more, and generally do all the "rightful" things in life, so they generally have jobs and therefore have good healthcare.

You see the correct question is not why the USA rates so low in the worldwide healthcare data (and thereby slamming our system), the question should be, for those who have healthcare what are their statistical numbers w/o the noise from all the ones not partaking in the earnest economy? The numbers would be very favorable for the US healthcare system wwith the exception of the cost (and we know why that is so bad a number).

The administration is projecting MORE healthcare spending from the initiation of the ACA till 2022 (that was the latest year of estimates given) than what was spent in previous years before the ACA. So if we are going to be spending more each year for as far as things have been estimated, how in the world will that not cost the US population more in premiums and out of pocket costs? The answer of course is that we (at least those of us actually paying anything into the system) are ALL going to be paying more.

So much for the ACA saving Americans $2,500 a year in premiums; this was Obama's promise during the campaign. In actuality each household will be paying far more each year, much of it going for others who pay zero or very, very little into the system.

As I said, the best advice may be to stay healthy my friends.

Healthcare costs from WHO

Healthcare costs from WHO (2009) or OECD (2010) - information from Wikipedia again:

US: Cost per person: $7960 (2009), $8233 (2010)
2nd place: Luxembourg $6592 (2009), Netherlands $5056 (2010)

% of GDP: US: 17.6 % (2010)
2nd place: Netherlands: 12.0 % (2010)

US is, by far, the most expensive healthcare system on Earth.
US is also roughly 33rd or 34th in terms of longevity (I will let you look that data up).

It must be very nice to be able to go through life with very strong opinions that don't have to line up with data or reality. I, for one, prefer to base decisions and conclusions on real data.

Would you care to re-think your position that America has the best healthcare in the world? If not, do you have a shred of reliable data to support your position? So far, compared to you, I have presented overwhelming evidence to support the notion that the US is not even close to the best healthcare system in the world.

What is wrong with you

What is wrong with you Americans? Why are you so obsessed with being number 1 in everything? Why do you feel compelled to lie or make up myths to pretend you are number one when you are not? No wonder you Americans have so many mental health problems. You refuse to accept certain realities.

The US is undeniably the best

The US is undeniably the best place to be in cases of heart attack, cancer, trauma, and premature birth as measured by mortality rates compared to the rest of the world.

Show me the data to prove that. Here is the data from Wikipedia for infant mortality:

Singapore #1
Cuba, yes Commie Cuba #33
United States: #34
Malta #35

You can check the rest of the data yourself. Now show me your data to support your assertion. I have zero tolerance for assertions based on pulling things out of thin air. If you have reliable data to support your claim, show it. Otherwise, close your mouth and open your mind and learn something for a change.

This is just another example

This is just another example of your delusions. You need to look at some real data rather than just shooting from the hip with your perceived notions. How are we the best? Not in longevity. Not in infant mortality. Not in customer satisfaction. Not in quality of life in later years. And certainly not in cost where we are, by far, the most costly. You say we are the best. Then show me some data to support your claim. I should also point out to you that the 2008 election was won on two big issues: getting America out of Bush's war in Iraq (accomplished, by the way) and fixing our healthcare system (working on it). How could we have both the best healthcare system in the world and, yet, have an election that was based on how bad is was? I am can't wait to see how you rationalize and explain that one with your 'logic'.

And from what I've seen of your economic and financial capabilities I think I'll choose the CBO data rather than yours to conclude that ACA will most likely wind up very close to revenue neutral. It may not be that good this year, but remember that the penalties for the freeloaders who won't sign up for insurance start to increase every year. I have zero sympathy for the 20-something who is healthy and won't get insurance and then goes skiing and breaks a leg or worse and requires $100K of medical treatment which you and I pay for without ACA. Why are you so dense that you can't get this simple point. The so-called mandate is really no different that wanting to go after welfare cheats.

The US is undeniably the best

The US is undeniably the best place to be in cases of heart attack, cancer, trauma, and premature birth as measured by mortality rates compared to the rest of the world.

"I am not aware of a single

"I am not aware of a single credible survey or study that supports that statement" (that America's healthcare was the best in the world)

It sure as hell is the best in the world!!! What planet did you just fall from??? Why do you think thousands of wealthy foreigners come to the USA every year to get specialized care? Because it is the best dumbnuts!!!! The catch is, is that it is very, very expensive.

Everyone knows that if not the best, it certainly could be argued to be near the very top of the list.

The only hitch, was that it was not good for the ones who had no coverage!!!!!! So I get it, the ones who had no coverage were simply not satisfied until they got something, and the president gave it to them. The question is, was it fair to include the millions of uninsured and uninsurable, at the expense of all the others paying or working for their coverage currently? And do not believe for a millisecond that if you had insurance, that under the ACA, you will be getting the same quality of care. That is just simply mathematically impossible. We will, under the full implementation of the ACA, absorb millions upon millions that were uninsured and are going to get coverage for a few bucks a month or even at no cost. Throw in all the millions more unable to get insurance previously for pre-existing conditions, and you have a gigantic sinkhole for costly care, that gets "paid for" by pennies on the dollar (for tiny amounts of premiums paid) for the cost of their care, that was not their before the ACA takes effect.

So just where do you think that money will come from? Yes, some tax increases, new taxes, young peoples premiums and levies on drug/diagnostics firms, etc., but if you think that will be enough to cover the enormous new encumbrances, then you need to take some math/economics classes. The only ones getting huge benefits from the ACA are these two groups who did not or could not get coverage before the ACA, because now they will be at least getting some kind of healthcare coverage. Already polls are showing that young people are signing up at far, far less percentages than they had factored in, dropping a huge amount of premium dollars expected to have "floated" the costs of the ACA. We are in trouble.

The truth is that everyone else that is not a part of these groups will suffer with less care/ less costly (but less effective) treatment, because that is the only way things will get even close to be self funding for the long term. Every credible analysis that does not assume best case scenarios, comes up with huge deficits.
$100,000-300,000 a year cancer therapies will be very difficult to secure especially if you are 60+ years of age. The doctors will be forced to make "prudent" treatments for those terminally ill.

Oh how pissed off people will be when they need expensive, specialized care and their prognosis is not the best. I don't care what they are telling you, it HAS TO GO THIS WAY because the numbers do not allow for the kind of expensive individual treatments currently allowed even if the patients prognosis is poor, and it's damn the torpedoes, we doctors will do everything possible to save your life.

Stay healthy my friends, that is the best advice anyone can give you once the ACA is fully implemented.

The only big problem I have

The only big problem I have with what you said was the comment that our 2008 healthcare system as it was, was the best in the world. I am not aware of a single credible survey or study that supports that statement. We don't make the top 10 in longevity, nor in things like contentment with life in old age, satisfaction with the system, cost, etc. Americans seem to have an incredibly hard time dealing with being anything but first in everything, but I just read the surveys, I don't make them up.

Your other concerns may be valid and, as I said, any such plan will need some adjustments. My only point was that we should be trying to make adjustments to make the thing a success rather than looking for ways to kill the entire thing. I don't know what kind of policy you had, so it is hard to comment. I would hope that you might agree that a policy that cost $50 a month and that had an annual limit of $1000 (just a theoretical set of numbers) would hardly qualify as healthcare insurance given that a day in a hospital can cost anywhere from maybe $3000 to over $5000, and that is just room and board, not other services like doctors, operating rooms, etc. The point here is there is some limit below which we could agree that a particular policy might be pretty much worthless and for all practical purposes would leave a person without any coverage in a medical emergency. Yes, the administration was, at best, sloppy in the way they dealt with the issue of keeping your own insurance. They were far more focused on the majority who are insured through work or for those who have private plans that are fairly 'complete'. And when it comes to a program like this, there is no excuse for sloppiness. But, much like the screwed up roll out, let's not over-react and throw the baby out with the bath water. Without Obamacare, what would have happened to you a year from now if your insurance company learned you were just diagnosed with cancer? Let us learn from the medical profession and use probes and scalpels rather than hacksaws and axes.

For what it's worth, I got hit with an Obamacare tax for a year and since it was based pretty much on a windfall profit, I had no problem in doing my share to help this thing work.

I didn't come here to

I didn't come here to criticize and, by the way, you tossed the first salvo.
Do I have a better plan? No. The American Health System was the best in the world as it was. Why do you think most people are angry at the changes...and being cancelled from their current plan. Sure Obama now says you can keep it but those plans, as previously written, don't exist anymore. Definitely not at the same premium price we were paying till cancellation.
Does everyone deserve Healthcare? Of course (it's a trick question). But the Government flatly lied for three years saying "you can keep your current plan". That was never going to happen.
Believing that enough young people were going to pay into the system so older retiree's will be covered was a crap shoot at best and the House will lose on this one.
Any changes of this magnitude should have been handled on a state by state basis.
I stand by what I say...this is going to get bad, very bad. This will also be Obama's legacy.
My premium is now 50% higher for less coverage. That's all I needed to know.
Yes, I am an angry Democrat who's ready to help vote out everyone who put this in place.
Sorry for calling you a fool but I think people who swallowed this pill, hook line and sinker, are quite foolish and it'll be the devil to pay later.

If I made a mistake, I

If I made a mistake, I apologize. But I will ask you the same question as I asked the other Obamacare opponent: With what would you replace it? Or, do you prefer to go back to the system we had in 2008?

Anyone can criticize and, yes, that is your right. Anyone can call others 'fool' for making an honest mistake. Those things are simple to do and, often require no real effort, in particular if truth is not high on your priority list. What is far more difficult is to come up with an alternative. The irony here is that one reason that it is so difficult for Republicans to come up with alternatives is that Obamacare is THEIR plan. The Democratic plan involved nothing less than a single payer government option to compete with the private sector. It's the Heritage Foundation plan. It's Romneycare. And if you are going to criticize, then I think it's only fair to ask for an explanation of why Republicans supported the plan when it was theirs, and then changed when it became the Democratic plan in the Senate. I also should note that, even though Romneycare got off to a very rocky start and required some adjustments, within a year it was working well, and as of now is amazingly popular.

So like your colleague here, or co-opponent to ACA, I ask two questions:

What has changed from when Republicans first proposed this new kind of system and today?

What is your alternative and why do you expect it to work to drive down the number of uninsured, etc. You know, like some details, please.

If you can be constructive and at least deal with the latter question, there is reason for a discussion. On the other hand, if you just wish to criticize, that, as I said, is your right. Please respect my right to respond.

Ah, you got the wrong person

Ah, you got the wrong person fool. I made the post and it was my first.
I stand by what I say. This is America and if you don't like what the President is doing you Stand Up and yell it out.
This is NOT Russia or China. We don't blindly follow someone down a hole because they have a title.

Still no ideas of your own

Still no ideas of your own other than more destruction and pathetic attempts to degrade an American President.

Just what I expected from you.

And if you are now claiming to be a Democrat you are clearly delusional, no if, ands, or buts.

Just wonder if you are as pig headed at work as you are here. Are you a know-it-all who won't listen to anyone else on the job too? I can only imagine how well you get along with your work colleagues and what they must think of you. Not that someone as self-assured as you would ever care.

I for one don't have to root

I for one don't have to root for Obamacare to fail. It's doing that quite well on its own. It's a horrible system which fines hard working folks with premium not only higher but with less coverage. Yes, I'm one of them.
If I could I'd impeach the fool and all the democrats that voted it in place. Just wait till next years elections. They are going to pay a hefty price. Yes, I'm a democrat.
I liked my plan just the way it was until I received a cancellation notice.
He knew three years ago this was going to happen. No if's, buts or maybe's about it.

Simple answer. You are the

Simple answer. You are the delusional one. You ignore polls and surveys and data. You talk about some kind of the future for the right wing based on todays youth. Have you seen any poll recently? The right wing loses significantly with the under 29 year old group. They continue to lose more and more with Latinos. They have pretty much given up on the black vote (guess why). They are slowly losing the women's vote. Check out what happened this month in Virginia. An anti-woman's issue Tea Party Republican lost to a very poor Democratic candidate, primarily due to his views on women's healthcare issues. I guess some women are just so socialist that they can't accept the idea of forced government medical procedures that have no medical value when it comes to owning their own bodies.

You have made more than enough posts here to prove your racist tendencies. Sure, you try to deny it every time you get caught, which just says you are a coward without the courage to back up your beliefs. But your intolerance is unmistakable. You have yet to repudiate the birthers and others who seek to characterize the President as foreign and not one of us. You have refused to dissociate yourself for the various self-avowed racists in the right wing and Tea Party. You are completely intolerant of every view but your own. You talk about 'straight thinking' and 'right morals' as if you somehow own them. Anyone who disagrees with you automatically becomes a dangerous socialist or liberal.

I have also posted my ideas on the deficit and debt here several times. You have either ignored my solutions or done one of your knee-jerk reactions of negativity each time (are you, by any chance, one of those nattering nabobs of negativism?). In contrast, you have proposed absolutely nothing other than some generalize babbling about cutting spending even more. But you won't say what you will cut, how much each cut will save, and the consequences of cutting various programs. Don't feel too bad, though, since even your representatives in Congress can't seem to do it either. All they know is what they are against. This current Congress has wasted tons of time and taxpayer dollars in a futile effort to repeal Obamacare. Why don't you object to that kind of government waste? Repeal simply will not occur as long as there is a Democrat in the White House. Oh, and what ever happened to the 'replace' thing? The only thing I've heard is that Republicans not only want to get rid of Obamacare, but they are still on that track about privatizing Medicare, which Bush wanted to do until he found out how massively unpopular that idea was.

So here we go, once again:

What is your plan for the deficit and debt? What would you cut and how much will you save with each cut? Are your proposed cuts politically practical or acceptable (Hardly likely).

With what would you replace Obamacare?

The Democrats tried to improve healthcare with ACA. It's not perfect and many who don't like it feel that way because they wanted a stronger government program with a single payer option to compete with private insurance. But rather than trying to modify Obamacare to shore up its weaknesses and working to make our healthcare system better, people like you and the Tea Party Republicans are actually rooting for Obamacare and America to fail. How dare you call yourselves patriots?

So we are back to square one with my specific proposals still on the books here (you can search this thread to find them) and you whining and complaining and doing nothing but name calling, fear mongering, and being divisive rather than making some specific proposals (and hopefully ones that don't deal with your personal local zoning issues which are not the subject of this thread, but just another one of your diversionary tactics).

Go ahead. Tell us your proposals to move forward. Talking about the past and obsessing over who is to blame is a futile exercise, whereas having an alternative to offer is something else. Since you don't appear to know the difference, I can only thank you for bringing the term 'delusional' to my attention . The word fits you perfectly.

No agenda other than to

No agenda other than to discredit that black man in the White House

I think we can all see that this one single, all encompassing synapsis short circuit, is all that matters to this one particular liberal. Every single issue and comes down to saving the black man who is in office. Never mind the mind numbing numbers this president has generated, it does not matter as long as the black president is not denigrated.

This guy would defend OJ Simpson as president if he somehow got into office, just because he is black. How crazy is that? Even straight thinking blacks know that OJ was guilty of murder, but I would bet Mr. Liberal has some reservations about OJ's guilt. Am I correct?

This is indeed a very, very, very simple fact Mr. Liberal, no matter how you slice and dice it: This president was primarily responsible for getting the debt situation so incredibly bad that, and here we go again, 40% of every dollar the US government spends for anything and everything has to be borrowed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How in the world are you going to address this? Since you claim we conservatives have no answers, how about you? How do you address this other than to say borrowing 40% of every dollar you spend is not really a big deal.

Really? Really? Nooooooooooooo really? You really believe this????

And you call me delusional.

I await the: "his only agenda is to bash the black president"

Yes, I am bashing this president, because the guy was a financial disaster during his term.

What, do you think I am going to defend Adolf Hitler for what he did during WWII because he was a white man????

You tell me who is delusional.

Sadly, there is no

Sadly, there is no intelligence test or requirement to vote. If there were, there would be little left of the republican party. This guy is delusional. He has an almost unique ability to analyze every piece of data incorrectly. But then again, his agenda is neither political nor economic. His inane postings are just a cover up for his racism which he has been caught showing several times here. He knows all the things that are wrong and every bit of data is made to fit into his crazy views. And no matter how many times he is challenged, he can't come up with a single coherent plan or agenda for the future other than repealing things. No alternative to the ACA, no real plan to deal with the national debt, which isn't surprising since he doesn't understand anything about it other than a few widely published numbers. All we see from him are the crocodile tears about future generations, but not that he would not lift a finger himself or suffer even the most minor inconvenience or expense to improve things in the future. Why, you may ask? Simple. He has no plan. No agenda other than to discredit that black man in the White House. Every option presented here to him is automatically rejected as being leftist or liberal or socialist, despite any evidence that he even knows that these terms mean.

Can you go through that thing with the deficit again? How much is it again? What percent of taxes go to paying it off? How and when America will really start to crash. And while you're at it, if you can really see into the future like you seem to believe, I'd really appreciate a heads up on who will win the Super Bowl.

I am also very happy that you reiterated that you are a self made man. This saves us all the trouble of having to find out who is to blame.

The sad thing is this person

The sad thing is this person is allowed to vote, the same as every one else.

countrie's >>>>>>>

countrie's >>>>>>> country's

Just so he won't go nuts over a typo.

Mr. Liberal does have a

Mr. Liberal does have a point, but uses incorrect terminology. "Warped" should be replaced by "straight thinking", and he may not believe it but there are many, many, many young people who would side w/ virtually everything I post here. And if we could track them all into middle age, these folks will all be, by a very high percentage, a very self sufficient & successful group.

Why? They have the correct mentality and prudence to see the world for what it really is; an open market for all the hard working, straight thinking, financially conservative individuals (yes, of any color or race) who just want to be left alone and allowed to prosper from their own hard work and initiative.

I know, because I started myself w/ virtually nothing, and ended up doing very well just by working hard and not expecting anything from anyone. I was going to get it for myself, legally and steadily, as long as government didn't interfere too much.

It turned out I was right, and it allowed me to step back and see where the liberal left loonies, have led America astray.

I post here because young folks need to hear from the quiet, hard working types who do not make much noise but in fact are the backbone of out countrie's economy.

Let me ask all of you out there a simple hypothesis;

If you were to bet on two young folks of the same age and economic status (let us assume that Mr. Liberal and myself could be in this magical time machine, starting out our careers at precisely the same moment w/ the same net worth) whom would you bet on to be a greater success 35 years down the road?

I know whom I would pick, and it wouldn't be the liberal guy.

Is this a joke or are there

Is this a joke or are there really people as warped as the conservative guy here?

Quiz: according to your

Quiz: according to your analogies below, which party says "if you don't like abortion, don't have an abortion"
Which party says "if you don't like gay marriage, don't get gay married"?
And which party tries to legislate their morality on the rest of the nation?

I am sorry, but if one believes life starts at conception, allowing abortion at any level is hypocritical, therefor the very rigid stance by conservatives. Just so you might see a "tiny" bit of difference; not caring if someone else eats meat if one choses not to, is hardly like ignoring the killing of a fetus just because it is not yours.

Mnay conservatives, including myself, do not care much if gay's want to commit and live their lives as a "married" couple. The issue is changing the meaning of the very word "marriage". For thousands of years this has meant a union of a male and female that has consummated a marriage. Gay's insist on changing the meaning of the word, not just getting equal treatment. I wholeheartedly agree a gay couple deserves every single right and advantage a married couple gets by law. But lets just call it any other word but marriage. In certain circles this word carries a sacred significance that some do not want to alter. What, do we call beautiful women "genetically gifted" now, if enough people take offense to the term "beautiful" as applied to women? This is typical of the left wanting others to change their world views to suit a select few in their interest. Leave us alone.

As for morality, isn't it just a bit naïve to think very long historical decency assumptions, can be practiced by a few in the midst of calamity and not be bothered? If you do not believe this, then I say we eliminate all private stalls in all public bathrooms, because bowel movements are a natural activity that no one should be ashamed of, and an activity that all of us partake in weekly. So why do we have to hide this necessary function, just because some believe it to be embarrassing?

And as for my repeated postings, when I know I am on to something that the naïve do not want to address, I keep pounding away at it. Much like a fighter who has a left jab the opponent has no defense for. You will not accept the reality of what I post because it scares you and your position.

But do not fret, even very astute economists seem oblivious to the calamity that will unfold unless very, very dramatic changes occur w/ the way our government operates. Proof of this is all the financiers and economists that missed forecasting the dotcom bust and the real estate bubble before they became inevitable. Just look around at all the losers from those periods. What I see in the future does indeed have very real possible consequences (actually almost certain inevitabilities), but I am hoping the young on the left starts changing their views.

And I do think it is changing by seeing some recent poles. I just hope I am helping to push the cart along.

You need to learn a simple

You need to learn a simple rule to help you to distinguish Republicans and Democrats. Despite what they like to say, they both have ways of strong support for big government and government regulation. The way to remember the difference between the two parties is that:

Democrats want big government and regulation in the boardroom
Republicans want big government and regulation in the bedroom

or -

Democrats believe in freedom for individuals to make their own decisions about how they live
Republicans believe in freedom for corporations to do whatever they choose to do and let so-called market forces keep things in check

The rest is just detail and commentary.

"I cannot honestly take

"I cannot honestly take credit for authoring this (it came from a commenter on an article about Obamacare), but my views are superimposable on every point."
Interesting view point. Tell me, do your (and your Republican brethren)laissez-faire "personal freedom" attitudes also apply to abortion and gay marriage?
Quiz: according to your analogies below, which party says "if you don't like abortion, don't have an abortion"
Which party says "if you don't like gay marriage, don't get gay married"?
And which party tries to legislate their morality on the rest of the nation?
I'm interested to see exactly how you're going to spin that. Should be worth a chuckle.

A. I don't know. B. I don't

A. I don't know.
B. I don't care.
C. Tell us your plan.
D. Tell us your plan.
E. Tell us your plan.
F. You

Get the idea?

Still playing the role of racist idiot I see. As usual you leave out critical details. The very few who are losing their plans have plans that are not worth the paper they are printed on. A plan that has a yearly limit of $5K is not a healthcare plan; it's more of a fraud that provides an overpriced false sense of security. Furthermore, you neglect to consider that the practice of cancelling plans and replacing them with others that cover less and/or cost more, or both, has been an insurance industry tactic for years as was cancelling policies because policy holders got sick, or denying coverage for sick people. One of the big features of ACA is that it eliminates these practices which are clearly unacceptable to the vast majority of Americans. And you want to go back to those days?? How crazy are you?

G. Tell us your plan
H. Tell us your plan.
I. Tell us YOUR plan.
J. And take your racism elsewhere.

American ends with I can; not I can't. I request your plan, but you can't. Therefore, logic dictates that you are not an American.

so do i get to keep my doctor

so do i get to keep my doctor or not?

Hey Mr. Racist: I hope you

Hey Mr. Racist:

I hope you had a good Thanksgiving, too. I am just curious as to whether you decided to loosen up this year, be a bit more liberal, and try some of the dark meat for a change. I assume you are well protected in your bunker today, down on your knees, praying that Congress will vote to repeal Black Friday, as well.

As for your post, it is redundant. You make the same point over and over again that only shows how naïve you are about economics, the economy, and monetary policy. Didn't you listen to Governor Jindal of Louisiana when he warned Republicans against being the party of stupid? My guess is not, since I would be very surprised if you pay attention to anyone who isn't lily white and Governor Jindal, as many know, is of Indian descent. Your selected factoids are not being challenged, but your interpretation is so bizarre that it is not worthy of comment or rebuttal.

Hope you all had a wonderful

Hope you all had a wonderful Thanksgiving.

We can get back to reality now.

So all of you Obama worshippers, lets try a very simple, logical thought experiment, OK? Or if you like, you can actually try this out for 10 years but I have to caution you, it will ruin you financially.

Since our current administration has seen fit to ignore basic financial common sense, try and do this for your own household budget with the caveat that ultimately, bankruptcy cannot be an option; everything you borrow will have to be paid back to the ones who lent you the money. OK? fair enough rules? After all the US government cannot fathom the thought of a national Federal bankruptcy, because there are no good avenues for such a catastrophe, NONE.

Lets say for EVERY DOLLAR that you spend for anything and everything for the next 10 years (food, cars, gas, utilities, taxes, mortgages, insurance, tuitions, repairs, gifts, booze, entertainment, donations, loans to family members, whores, etc; EVERYTHING!), you borrow 40% of it from a friend or friends and promise to pay them back at 2.4-5% interest (depending on the fed discount rate). You do not pay off any of this principle, you just pay the interest.

Just what financial shape do you think you will be in, after 10 years? And you are to visualize at that point, that you will continue to borrow 40% of anything you spend in perpetuity, while continuing to pay the increasing interest on this loan that continues to grow by the interest/principal on the 40%+ each year of what you spend.

Further, lets imagine that there is no way for you to pay off in advance, any of the principal being continually accumulated at such an enormous rate. After all, the US government has virtually a zero chance of paying any significant portion of its fed debt anytime soon, even with a good economy staying that way for decades. And whom actually believes we will never see very damaging recessions/ depressions over the next decades or centuries? So, assuming some bumps along the road for the US economy, EVEN GREATER levels of borrowing are more likely, rather than any significant principal payments on the debt.

Do you get just a bit nervous about this scenario? We have NEVER entered a period of debt problems in our nations history quite as fancy as Obama has set us up for, so saying we have never defaulted on fed treasuries means nothing.

We will be in uncharted waters, skippered by all you young fools who voted the idiot into office. So in that respect, it is kinda like rightful Karma for the responsible parties. That is why we conservatives have to identify the correct thinking heirs to our estates, and leave them what they deserve because our government will have essentially "stolen" from their future. Besides, they would not have been the ones who voted for this clown.

It doesn't matter, the

It doesn't matter, the hypocrisy is a mile deep on both sides. There is no difference between them, liars and criminals all.

I can add one myself; If a

I can add one myself;

If a Republican sees a very rich man, he tries to figure out what that man has been doing to get that rich.

If a Democrat sees a very rich man, he figure it was handed down to the guy from a rich parent, and would like the government to be able to tax the majority of it for redistribution.


And if the Republican finds out the rich guy indeed, did simply just inherit his wealth, he shrugs his shoulders and says what a lucky guy he is, but has no desire to take it from him to give to others.

I cannot honestly take credit

I cannot honestly take credit for authoring this (it came from a commenter on an article about Obamacare), but my views are superimposable on every point.

If a Republican doesn't like guns, he doesn't buy one.
If a Democrat doesn't like guns, he wants all guns outlawed.

If a Republican is a vegetarian, he doesn't eat meat.
If a Democrat is a vegetarian, he wants all meat products banned for everyone.

If a Republican is gay, he quietly leads his life.
If a Democrat is gay, he demands legislated respect.

If a Republican is down-and-out, he thinks about how to better his situation.
If a Democrat is down-and-out he wonders who is going to take care of him.

If a Republican doesn't like a talk show host, he switches channels.
A Democrat demands that those they don't like be shut down.

If a Republican is a non-believer, he doesn't go to church.
A Democrat non-believer wants any mention of God and religion silenced.

If a Republican decides he needs health care, he either shops for it, or chooses a job that provides it.
If a Democrat decides he needs health care, he demands that the rest of us pay for his.

"You see? There you go again.

"You see? There you go again. It's all about Obama and that tells me a lot"

Yes, indeed it should tell you a lot because indeed it is all about Obama, that is correct! No matter the circumstances, it was better to not seal the countries fate(and the younger folks future) by selling out and kicking the can down the road. If it was a reasonable amount of debt accumulation, that would have been entirely logical and acceptable. But he spent/ wasted/ gave away/ lost track of more debt money than ALL PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS COMBINED!!!!!!! What is so hard to understand about this? You Obama lovers just do not want to face the facts.

If my family was broke and we could not pay any of our bills because of recent difficulties, I could see borrowing $10K, $50K or maybe even $100K. An amount I'd be pretty sure I could pay back. But even if someone offered, would it be wise for me to borrow say, $10 million dollars? If I was broke at the time this would certainly seal my fate would it not, if bankruptcy was not a possibility? (the USA simply could not declare a total default on treasury notes, that would be the end of us). But that is precisely what Obama did, borrow like a drunken sailor.

Did you know that for every dollar the Obama administration currently spends, they have to borrow 40 cents of it, because of the debt we are currently carrying and which he is mostly responsible for? So if the government pays Joe Smith a $1,000 dollar welfare chk, the US government has to borrow $400.00 of that $1,000 dollars in order for the chk not to bounce! That would be true for EVERY SINGLE DOLLAR the government currently spends for anything and everything.

If you cannot deduce that that is a ginormous problem going forward, then all hope is lost for you.

You see? There you go again.

You see? There you go again. It's all about Obama and that tells me a lot. Everything was both hunky and dory before he came on the scene and now everything has turned to excrement. I've repeatedly stated that both sides share blame whereas, with you, it's all Obama's fault. A number of my ideas and plans that I've posted in the past and will not repeat now, are opposed by what you think of as a monolithic liberal conspiracy and quite a few are actually embraced by conservatives. In some cases I agree more with conservatives on a theoretical basis, but won't go along with an idea because of practical considerations. Imagine if we had a balanced budget amendment in effect on Sept. 10, 2001. Two days later, Congress would be faced with a choice of raising taxes immediately to support an effort against Al Quaeda, or do nothing. The same would be true for other emergencies such as hurricane Katrina, Rita, or Sandy. In theory I don't want any debt, be it government or private company debt. From a practical point of view, neither works. So, bitch all you want against your mythical group called liberals, just admit that I'm not part of that group and that's why I resent that 'you liberals' BS you use all the time. I won't debate politics or policy with you anymore because you are too close minded (by your own admission), because you are rude and crude, because your real agenda, no matter how much you try to disguise it, is about Obama and it's not because his policies are different than many liberals because you make your attacks on him so personal. I told my liberal friends they were wrong for doing it with Bush, but when it comes to stuff like that, they were mere amateurs compared to you.

The bottom line is that is you can't show any respect when you are interacting with someone else, you don't deserve to have your interaction perpetuated. And since you, by your own admission, have no respect for anyone but people who are your political clones, there is no useful purpose to debating your interpretation of facts (not the facts themselves, in case you haven't noticed). And if you think I've been throwing mud at you, just put your sheets in the laundry with a bit of detergent and you'll look all nice and clean for your next gathering.

"get it into your head that

"get it into your head that honest men can disagree or that there can be multiple paths to achieve a goal"

Ha, ha, ha! boy did I get a good laugh out of this quote.

But you are correct, my beliefs are that we on the conservative side are correct, so damn the torpedoes. If you like this better, screw you guys.

But at least I see that I am pig headed. The left however, is fore ever calling everyone else names and saying that the other side cannot listen to another position. Just what makes you think that you are being one tiny bit different? The whole time we are disagreeing here you deny the very facts and figures we post and toss it off as hysterics.

None of the "doom and gloom" as you call it, has not quite panned out yet because the biggest problems never existed before Obama!

ACA, Fed. debt, stimulus, bailouts, growing government, 5 year high unemployment, etc, etc. has never been this crazy bad.
So while you say we are still here in the good old USA thriving as ever, that is like being on the flight on Sept 11 and saying don't worry about this hijacking, these guys don't want to die either.

If you have any real or new

If you have any real or new ideas, let's hear them. All we've seen so far is nasty criticism and pure speculation on what will happen in the future. Since the right is always talking about future boogeymen, and since none of these predictions has every come true, your doom and gloom predictions carry no weight whatsoever. You are nothing but pure negativity who is content to spread his anger and hatred. Your can't seem to get it into your head that honest men can disagree or that there can be multiple paths to achieve a goal. It just has to be your way and everyone is an evil socialist, liberal, or whatever other epithets you choose to use on any given day. Your approach is rude, antagonistic, immature (even if you are an old man), and shows you really know nothing about economics, politics, healthcare, or government.

As for my calling you a racist, that is also based on many of your posts, the contents of which is best explained by calling you a racist. It is you, and not I that brought up things like the KKK and your other warped comments on race. It is you who constantly refers to President Obama in terminology that is only designed to make him appear to be sub-human or, at least, foreign and definitely not one of 'us'. You see one side as pure evil (liberals) and one side as almost god-like saviors (reactionary conservatives). I doubt you actually know the difference between a conservative and reactionary, and I will leave it to you to self-educate yourself even though it appears that any form of education or truth is an anathema you.

And, as they say ..... if the sheet fits, wear it !!!

And until you show any signs of contributing anything positive here, your image won't change.

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