Siemens DX Agenda 2013

In a last ditch effort, Siemens, is having a huge garage sale of its Diagnostic lines in an effort to cut the major losses it's been having the past 7 years. Vista's, Centaur's and Immulites at bargain basement deals.
Apparently they haven't learnt any lessons.
Where do you think it's all going this year?

I've heard the same thing

I've heard the same thing about 2017 and a new platform release. Problem is the company has changed dramatically since they started working on Trinidad. A new CEO is in place and I seriously doubt JK wants to make the same mistakes at PL.
Buying into diagnostics was a mistake for Siemens from the beginning. They excel in engineering which made Imaging a good fit. But diagnostics? Big money loser for them.
I don't think DX can survive till 2017 let alone introduce a new platform while still trying to peddle Immulite, Vista or Centaur.
But watching what they've done the past 7 years it would not surprise me.

2017? That's a long way off

2017? That's a long way off and it is hard to recall that a new system, three years out, has ever made it on time. If the plan is for 2017 today, then you can figure 2018 or 2019 are more realistic dates (other than some very slow, limited rollout). Also, the industry standard is that when a system is 3 years from launch, it is shown to a few customers privately or even shown in some form at shows like AACC.

Moreover, in order to recapture old business and pick up new business, the system will need to significantly exceed existing competitive products either in performance, reliability, ease-of-use, and/or cost. Performance is unlikely to be a key driver here since there are all sorts of standards of performance to which any legitimate competitor must adhere, and, with the exception of a very few tests, being a lot better than the standard is not of much value to the customer. Reliability must pretty much be state of the art relative to the competition and probably needs to reach that level within 6-12 months after launch (a few growing pains will be tolerated by customers, although they can influence the pace of launch). Ease of use is important as the skill level of customer operators continues to decline and more and more functions come under system control. Siemens will need to have some strong interactions with customers, especially direct users, to ensure they meet or exceed the convenience of existing products. And then there is cost. It is not clear that Siemens is really working on cost reduction to the extent that they can pass the savings on to customers.

Given all of the above, it is not easy to envision Siemens getting back to the market share they had in year one.

Losses will continue with their existing business. It would be in Siemens best interest to divest healthcare or, at least, diagnostics but who would buy a company that is bleeding and likely to keep bleeding for a minimum of 3-5 years? And on top of that, Siemens must convince any potential buyer that Trinidad is truly a path to regain significant market share when there are few opportunities to be significantly better than Roche, Beckman/Danaher, or Abbott.

And if Trinidad falters ...............

In May the overall Siemens

In May the overall Siemens plan for DX and other divisions will be announced.
What I do know is basically related to Tarrytown and what we've been told.
Siemens DX is putting a major portion of its eggs in "Trinidad". This platform is being worked on here and a few other sites with a major "big push".
The current rumored game plan, as some in management have mentioned, is for a 2017 release in conjuction with shutting down the Immulite line the same time.
Siemens does realize long term sales for Immulite, Centaur and Vista is a losing proposition.
Trinidad, in Siemens eyes, is suppose to help level the playing field and try to get back some of the customers it lost to Roche and others.
Apparently Centaur and Immulite still have major backorder issues. Joe K. might be changing the timeline next month.
Several analyst have already advised him to dump most of Healthcare sooner rather than later.

Perhaps. But with

Perhaps. But with consolidation in the industry, the price keeps going up. And, in this case, the whole is worth a lot less than the parts at the time of purchase which means either Siemens will need to find a really big sucker or take a loss. They will then need to find a way to say that stopping the bleeding represented victory.

The other problem is that there are fewer and fewer suckers. Anyone who, for instance, casually goes over what happened to Tarrytown under the Bayer and Siemens regimes, will start to see a big problem. Since Bayer took over, the closest thing they had to a successful new product was Immuno 1, and even there, Bayer felt it necessary to buy Centaur to carry them into the future. That's roughly 25 years and essentially no new products. And not much has really come out from Dade that is new. Vista still seems to be struggling. How much of a sucker will it take to pay anything near what Siemens needs as a minimum? Bayer bought Technicon on the promise of two Japanese manufactured chemistry systems, H*3, and Immuno 1. Siemens bought Technicon on the future of Centaur plus Advia IMS. If Siemens is selling now, what do they have in the pipeline to lure a buyer?

It's quite a dilemma.

BAYER was naïve,Siemens was

BAYER was naïve,Siemens was naïve, they is always a sucker

back to the future,microscan

back to the future,microscan will be sold,rest of mm phased out,poc and hhs product lines within one bu with cai leading the way

Hmmmm. Let's see. They

Hmmmm. Let's see. They overpaid for three companies. They failed to integrate them. They failed to close down unwanted sites. The two ready-to-launch products they thought they had bought (Advia IMS and Vista) have been failures; one is only a distant memory for the historians. Most of their technical experts have either left on their own or been laid off. There have been significant manufacturing issues in both Massachusetts and Llanberis. Market share had dropped significantly since day one.

So question one is: What is it that they actually think they have that's worth selling.

On the buyer side, Siemens was completely fooled as a result of a poor due diligence. Strangely enough, so was Bayer when they bought Technicon from Cooper and again, involving ready-to-go system less ready than expected and ultimately failed. But Bayer spent almost a billion dollars to create the Advia IMS illusion and then found sucker in Siemens to buy it.

So question two is: Who in the world would be so naïve as to buy Siemens diagnostics when they apparently have nothing really new in the pipeline other than a redesigned skin.

These, and other questions, will be answered on our next episode of 'As the Anaylzer Churns'.

DX would have been sold were

DX would have been sold were it not for the fact they overpaid for that dog, Dade-behring. Germans are not pleased they were scammed...holding on to save face.
Trimming down to show more profit...Molecular is only first step.

Don't think Flanders will

Don't think Flanders will have anything to do with Trinidad AKA reskinned (again) unreliable Centaur.

I think it has something to

I think it has something to do with Trinidad.
Anyone out there with more information?

Could just be inflating

Could just be inflating things in order to sell DX off. Siemens bought most of DX based on over optimism and hype by the sellers. If they are selling based on some new system about which there have been many rumors, it would look very strange if they weren't gearing up for production even if the system isn't as ready as they claim.

Yet through all this, the

Yet through all this, the Flanders, NJ expansion is going full speed ahead. It's hard to tell from outside, but it looks like the instrument production facility is at least doubling in size. They must plan on something being done there, although self-delusion seems to be a prime Siemens trait.

We have now entered the

We have now entered the twilight zone. All those facilities dead. And someone in Korea wants to buy a dead company. So either the Korean deal is just another hollow rumour or someone, somewhere sees some value in one or more of the pieces that comprise Siemens DX.

If you read other threads you will note that many companies are saying the same thing, especially about R&D. All of those departments are dying, but more due to lack of need to develop new tests (there just aren't that many coming along each year now) than a pure cost cutting decision by bean counters. Most of the major players make fairly similar products with fairly similar performance, so the market is driven by product cost, product reliability, and product user convenience (especially important due to the declining skill level of customer operators and even other supposedly more skilled positions in customer labs). Diagnostics is struggling through the transition between a high growth business to a more stable, slow growth business. It's a tough adjustment to make in any industry, but the presence of owners like Siemens and Danaher, in particular, makes it even more difficult since neither really seems to understand the business at all.

For those looking for the excitement of a growth, thriving business, I strongly suggest you look outside of the current diagnostics industry. Even the reasonably competent companies like Roche and Abbott, who have some understanding of the business, are not pouring large amounts of money into novel areas, at least not directly. It is much smart for companies to partner with likely winners in new areas (think DNA testing, assuming a viable, paid for market ever really develops to an extent that justifies development costs) than it is to assemble their own staff. So look to companies that are partnering with the big boys as one option. Even if your expertise is more in development than research, you offer practical experience in terms of what will actually work technically, what will work from a manufacturing point of view, and from a customer point of view.

Even in the face of a changing business status, there are plenty of opportunities for those who are willing to do some homework, present the strengths of their experience, and dare to make the leap.

The protein chemistry is a

The protein chemistry is a total joke in walpole. The FDA is too dumb to realize all the violations. In buffers and wetcakes- with bogus stability engineering.

Actually they are already

Actually they are already dead and don't knowit yet. Like a tick on a dog with a flea and tick collar. Still suckingblood but saturated with pesticide intracellularly.
Tarrytown dead--
walpole dead
--cal dead eng dead
dx to asia---

DX to a Korean company

DX to a Korean company

It wasn't Bayer and Siemens

It wasn't Bayer and Siemens that killed Tarrytown. Just one name comes to mind when it comes to Tarrytown's demise: DS, the systems engineer, was the most destructive person to ever work in Tarrytown, ruining both many projects and many careers. There is a direct relationship between the power the DS had and the failure of R&D to produce successful products.

Bayer drove the final nail in

Bayer drove the final nail in the coffin of Tarrytown as a developer of diagnostics systems. Much like Siemens, not a single new system came out of Tarrytown during the Bayer years. The spent millions on Advia IMS and knew early on that it was going to fail. They 'managed' clinical chemistry from a 30 % market share to a 5 % share. Then, just to make sure, they made sure they got rid of just about every talented person in R&D, to ensure that Tarrytown would never rise again.

And much like Bayer, Siemens has done nothing to grow the business but has 'managed' it from first to fourth (and last among the major companies). No new systems either. And still trying to recover from the shock of learning that Advia IMS and Dade Vista were not ready for prime time. One system is dead, and the other never became a significant factor in the marketplace. Nine years into it and they are still dealing with basic integration and consolidation issues. It's just incredible.

Have they actually made a formal announcement of Plan 2014 - "Unsere Zukunft in der Phantasie"


Bayer was not good

Bayer was not good

It's a new year. Can't wait

It's a new year. Can't wait to hear what Siemens DX Agenda 2014 looks like. More failures? Still no new products. A sale to ????? (don't seem to be a lot of takers around). Maybe free Chinese lessons for all employees (a hint of things to come?).

Maybe plans for a big celebration party next year marking ten years of Siemens in 2016? The way Siemens works, it will take them over a year just to plan for such a celebration.

Just don't expect too much from a company that seems not to be able to even spell the word 'strategy' let alone have a coherent, or any other, one. Even the nastiest cynic could not have predicted how badly Siemens has managed diagnostics.

Just a lot of pity and sympathy for all of the good employees from Dade, DPC, and Bayer who were either laid off, fired, left on their own, or had to stay and watch the decent companies they worked for be ruined by a combination of incompetence and ignorance.

Anyone who has ever watched a

Anyone who has ever watched a disaster relief effort understands the two phases: first is rescue, and then, after it is believed that all the survivors have been rescued, the next stage is recovery.

Sending the rescue squad out months after a disaster has occurred is a futile effort. After almost a decade of mismanagement, it is hard to believe that the Trinidad rescue squad will accomplish much, especially if rumours about what Trinidad really is, are true. Siemens DX doesn't just need a so-called new product; it needs a complete corporate makeover.

Trinidad to the rescue

Trinidad to the rescue

Most potential buyers

Most potential buyers wouldn't touch DX with a ten foot pole. There might be a buyer who just wants to bleed the company to death. There might be a buyer who is very naïve and DX will continue to spiral down. And there is just a tiny chance that a buyer will appear that actually has a plan that includes recruiting the right people to get DX going and who probably knows and understands the whole business.

What are the chances of the latter occurring?

you are an idiot .....look at

you are an idiot .....look at the garage sale that will occur in several months. including all of DX on the block. All of it is on the table.

Mobile freak is back again.

Mobile freak is back again. Glad to see you're still alive and still obsessed as ever. Your personal problems are of no interest to us. However, if you feel compelled to keep posting, could you please add a bit of humour in order to improve the entertainment value of your pitiful saga?



(Was I able to sneak that one by the censors?)

How long does it take until

How long does it take until the SE Region realizes that you have to see and hear by yourself, not have one female "show" you things?

Little former Mobile has "seen" and "heard" all by herself her whole life.

Shame shame, all the other did was remind her of something she already knew by the time she was 9 months old, that's 28 years behind.

Most of the talent in R&D

Most of the talent in R&D that made the individual companies what they were at one time, is long gone. Much was gone before Siemens even started their acquisitions and more has gone over the past several years. It is doubtful that Siemens currently has the critical mass to develop a new system even combining all of their R&D sites. They don't have enough people who have been through the process successfully and know what's really involved. At bset, they can come up with another product line extension that integrates the best of what they already have. But it will still be an old Dimension, Vista, Centaur with a few bells and whistles (or not as in the case of Gen-a-mess). And if that is the best they can do, their long term future doesn't seem bright.

Once you lose the talent and experience and history of success, you also lose all the things those people know that are not written down in some notebook And it just can't be recreated out of thin air.

It's kind of difficult to

It's kind of difficult to grow when 2 big R&D centers had major product development disasters. So much for Siemens trying to balance risk when both Dade and Bayer were equally incompetent. Growth prospects in Europe are now 0% due to a new continental-wide recession. Even Asia is having problems with China facing a real estate collapse on top of a slowing manufacturing sector. Japan is entering a recession. The US pretends everything is improving when there are clear signs of fubdamental deterioration such as people dropping out of the workforce because they cannot find work. And so the noose tightens around Siemens future business prospects.

I have been reading all

I have been reading all comments in this blog I live in Mexico and I just can tell that the same situation is happening here, Siemens came and bought a succesful DX companies and incredibly and slowly
It has been destroying it. Our people if they aren´t fired they are migrating to other companies like Roche, abbott, beckman coulter.

The cash cow concept for

The cash cow concept for Immulite was actually a well thought out basic strategy if you think about its rationale. The problem is that even a cash cow needs to be managed properly as does its transition from growth product to cash cow. Siemens did not have a clue as to how to do this and how to shut down LA which was an integral part of the plan. They seemed totally lost when it came to transfer of technology and manufacturing from one site to another.

Both the Bayer and Dade components had developed processes from transferring complex manufacturing procedures, yet their expertise was barely used. LA is still open and the cash cow is delivering sour cream. A useful product, but it does tend to clog the reagent lines. The failure to maximize the potential benefit of a large installed base of Immulite systems is symptomatic of their entire to understand some of the unique aspects of diagnostics. And they don't even seem to have a clue as to where to turn for some real, practical, ways to fix things. The experts they hire only give them pre-canned, generalized, politically correct solution options and usually recommend the one in the middle.

Good planning, but terrible execution.

True, Tarrytown isn't what it

True, Tarrytown isn't what it use to be.
Nothing really new in development. Basically we're in patch and fix mode for either Centaur or Immulite.
Way too many reagent issues...and most of those who knew how to fix a problem have left for greener pastures or were part of layoff.
Centaur is still doing reasonably well. The "cash cow" philosophy of purchasing Immulite definitely didn't pan out. More like a dead cow now. The people working on it at this site have basically given up on a handful of kits already.
I've heard the layoff rumor as well but we've dodged so many bullets the past seven years I'm hopeful this one will just come and go.

Any other sites hear anything?

Apparently it was also going

Apparently it was also going around other sites including Flanders and LA.
Just have to wait and see.

Any detail on departments to

Any detail on departments to be affected? The building appears pretty empty right now. The largest occupier of space, R&D, seems completely dead with no signs of anything that resembles past days when new systems were being developed and older ones supported and enhanced. Not a single sign of any enthusiasm. Wtih no new producs to sell, sounds like marketing and sales aren't exactly overworked. If you think about it, other than basic business and support services such as legal, regulatory, QA central, etc. it is almost impossible to see what the rest of Tarrytown is delivering to the bottom line. None of the existing departments can be completely eliminated, but without anything major going on, it sounds like alot of consolidation could be accomplished.

All of this lmost makes one wonder why Siemens wouldn't be looking for a smaller facility, even it's a new one they lease for the short term and it's nearby. Lot's of possibilities, including that the rumour, like so many before it, is false.

New Rumor going around

New Rumor going around Tarrytown has another layoff scheduled around summertime. Apparently the bean counters think most sites have much too many people for the amount of work being generated.
Has anyone else heard this?

Yes, it is. Mine is smaller,

Yes, it is. Mine is smaller, more compact, and infinitely more efficient. So much for those who still believe that size is everything and that bigger is always better.

my point • is bigger than

my point • is bigger than yours.

If Siemens Dx is a house of

If Siemens Dx is a house of cards then why don't they fall? In the meantime they are destroying the market in an attempt to make sales at any price. They are waddling around like penguins with their pricing around their ankles. What is the point of sales if you make no margin to cover your overheads and make no money for shareholders?

The other Siemens divisions must be spewing at the poor performance of Dx.
What will it take for Siemens corporate to say "Enough is enough,
Diagnostics be gone"



Is this your point ---> .

Is this your point ---> . <---


He is a VERY IMPORTANT person. If you don't believe me, just as him. Try to listen carefully to him some time. The words are English. They seem to form into sentences. But much of it is just a meaningless string of words that say nothing. He's a master of vague.

Is Alex G still BS? This Guy

Is Alex G still BS? This Guy is unique in Flanders He never went to school but he is a Director of systems engineering, can you imagine.

哈哈, so true, so chinese.

哈哈, so true, so chinese.

"my chinese coworker often

"my chinese coworker often type "ha ha" on anything."

You will be able to get your revenge when memos start appearing in Chinese and all you will be able to do is write HA HA on them !!!

The new Siemens sales slogan will be geared to those who buy at least 6 products from them:

With Six You Get Eggroll

and maybe a forecast from the hippy-dippy weather man.

A bit esoteric or just stretching too much for a laugh? But, seriosuly folks, what else can one do about Siemens other than laugh?


Less "Ha Ha", more english

Less "Ha Ha", more english please.

my chinese coworker often type "ha ha" on anything.

You must be referring to the

You must be referring to the king of the project killers, DS. He had a long history of killing project with his 'it's not in the schedule, I don't have the resources, or the project will be delayed and they will fire us all'. Yet, over a 30 year period, and under a variety of owners, DS managed to charm his superiors into believing him, while at the same time destroying a few careers along the way. DS, more than any single individual, is responsible for the decline of Technicon from their dominance in the early 80s to their current state. During that time, he was not responsible for a single successful product or project.

Don't blame Siemens too much on Gen-A-Mess. They were charmed and fooled by the best.

Siemens never instilled the

Siemens never instilled the discipline engineering process on the R&D people. That would have stopped MOST of the bleeding. Products that work always sell. Think about the cost of pissing away a year on Gen-a-mess after a known bug was discoverd, but would not be addressed because it "wasn't in the schedule". Then think about the larger costs associated with shutting down the whole project!!! Obviously project managers don't know what they are doing; and those who do, get frustrated and leave (myself included). Siemens DX is a house of cards in the process of crashing. Unfortunately not too many life boats are out there at the moment.

Siemens DX is bad, but in

Siemens DX is bad, but in this job market? you should get used to your retirement and stop spreading lies.
End Quote

Ha Ha, just another Siemens kitten praying they don't shutdown.

I work for Roche. My department has so many ex-Siemens DX employees they can start their own little country.
They all say the same thing about "getting out" and enjoy living again. Just hard to believe how one company got it so wrong.
Roche management loves it. The influx of skilled employee's (Bayer, Dade and DPC training) from Siemens has made re-training easy, quick and on the money.

So, on behalf of everyone here at Roche, Thank you Siemens DX.

Interesting to compare Roche

Interesting to compare Roche and Siemens. Roche was basically nothing in diagnostics until they bought Boehringer-Mannheim. They had a very small share of the basic market, but had many systems in the field that customers used to develop their own esoteric methods for the most part (e.g, large system place, small aftermarket revenue trail). BMD was an interesting company by itsself since it was the one major success of a joint venture between an intrument company (Hitachi) and a chemical company (Boehringer). They even managed success despite the different national cultures.

It sounds like Roche knew enough to not interfere too much with the BMD success. Both Siemens and Roche acquired roughly one-third of the clinical chemistry market at the time of purchase. Roche pretty much maintained their position; Siemens let theirs disappear into thin air. My guess is that Roche retained alot of their most important talent. Siemens did not (some of it had already left prior to the sales). It is hard to imagine that Siemens management can look around and find an hardcore team of individuals with a good history of success in diagnostics, be it in sales, R&D, QA, or manufacturing. Without that kind of internal talent, Siemens will stay condemned to third, fourth, or fifth place.

Siemens DX is bad, but in

Siemens DX is bad, but in this job market? you should get used to your retirement and stop spreading lies.

Just another example on how the truth hurts.
Siemens DX doesn't need anyone to spread lies. They do that quite well on their own.
The Diagnostic Division is falling apart and many labs have already sent back their platforms.
Isn't it amazing how a company spends billions to become #1 and then six years later they are already lower than #4 in the marketplace.
Yes, I'm also enjoying my retirement though shortlived. Just got a job offer from Roche.

"Positions remain open for

"Positions remain open for months on end due to the fact that anyone in the industry, internal or external, will not take the positions."

Siemens DX is bad, but in this job market? you should get used to your retirement and stop spreading lies.

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