Siemens DX Agenda 2013

In a last ditch effort, Siemens, is having a huge garage sale of its Diagnostic lines in an effort to cut the major losses it's been having the past 7 years. Vista's, Centaur's and Immulites at bargain basement deals.
Apparently they haven't learnt any lessons.
Where do you think it's all going this year?

I believe I said IF and

I believe I said IF and indicated it was very unlikely. Maybe I was just getting in touch with my optimist or hopefulness side.

Keep the faith, baby !!

"On the other hand, if they

"On the other hand, if they actually announce a plan with some details and dates, and put forth a clearly outlined plan for moving the company forward and provide some motivation for the remaining employees to support, that would be a most welcome change and an indication that Siemens is finally starting to get it."

Really? We're talking about Siemens here.
Keep dreaming. It might make you feel better in the short term.

Keep busy on the job and at

Keep busy on the job and at home and avoid discussing May 7 because it will only have a negative impact on you in the interim.

And good luck to all.


May 7 may be a day of

May 7 may be a day of significance or just another overhyped announcement that leaves everyone unsure and even less focused on doing their jobs. Siemens has a pretty good history of not being specific at their Town Hall meetings. SOME employees will PROBABLY be let go. SOME sites MAY have to be closed (not will be closed). As I recall, the last time Siemens announced an impending layoff, the actual numbers were quite a bit lower than the initial guesses and projects (since Siemens was quite non-specific about details then as well). Expect more of the same. On the other hand, if they actually announce a plan with some details and dates, and put forth a clearly outlined plan for moving the company forward and provide some motivation for the remaining employees to support, that would be a most welcome change and an indication that Siemens is finally starting to get it.

Either way, what will be, will be and there is no point in speculating too much for the next two weeks. Speculating seems to have a tendency to promote the most dismal future. Just about every layoff that I have seen, the rumored numbers are considerably higher than what actually occurs. And it just makes you tense and worry about something over which you have no control at this point. If you are truly worried, get your job search into high gear and be flexible. Be prepared for a decrease in salary or level or both. And if you are not really worried, just try to enjoy the next few weeks as if you knew nothing about May 7. Keep busy on the job and at home and avoid discussing May 7 because it will only have a negative impact on you in the interim.

And good luck to all.

If it wasn't for the

If it wasn't for the "packages" some DX sites would have shutdown a long time ago. Malcontents now rule.
That's all water under the bridge now anyway.
May 7th everything changes...including, in some cases, whom you work for.
Say what you want about "packages" but Siemens has been an awful experience for so many employee's the past seven years.
Get your resumes ready.
You'll also appreciate the cheap package you'll be getting to help tie you over.

I'm with you. "Packages"

I'm with you. "Packages" create a perverse incentive for malcontents to hang around hoping they can get one. The world would be better off without them. Better off with just 1-year contracts for everyone, or even no contracts and being employees at will.

If employee doesn't like the work, leave.
If employer doesn't like the employee, fire them.

No packages.

I have recently been accused

I have recently been accused of attacking all of the owners of Tarrytown since 1980, starting with Revlon up to and including Siemens. There have also been a number of posts indicating that many people just want a package so they can leave. This is an equal part of the problem; employees who feel some form of entitlement to a 'package' just because they are unhappy or because the company is doing poorly. I have commented on this attitude before and still would like an answer as to why you all feel so privileged or entitled to a bonus, just for leaving. Poor management is one of Siemens' problems; employees with an attitude problem such as yours is another big problem. No company should have to deal with what amounts to extortion.

Now everyone can come after me as a whiner, malcontent, or troublemaker. Bring it on, folks !



We are running a 'book' here

We are running a 'book' here in the UK - which will destroy our DX first, the Kaiser or UK Management stabbing the self destruct button with its disastrous employee relations and engagement.

I don't like either

I don't like either choice.
What I do want, and many others like me, is a package and handshake goodbye.
Time to move on. This ship has sailed and sunk.
If anything, DX, has shown it doesn't matter how much money you have...if you don't have a vision or adquate management in place you're just wasting everyones time.

Not a problem that management

Not a problem that management isn't talking. Wait until the next Town Hall when they do talk and see which you like more: silence or BS !!

At my site we are also having

At my site we are also having a mandatory Town Hall the same day.
Don't know what's up and management isn't talking.

Notification of changes start

Notification of changes start May 7 with JK. At Tarrytown we already have a scheduled Town Hall on May 9. Would not be surprised if all sites have a Town Hall the same day...same as last time.
Some things in DX will be kept, others not.
Site Heads will fill in the details after JK's talk on Siemens future.

Laugh all you want as you

Laugh all you want as you look at where Tarrytown was 30 years ago and its market share back then and where it is now. The facts speak for themselves.

not a thing,30 years

not a thing,30 years listening to you, we all have a laugh,each new generation,same old crap,Revlon sucks,Cooper sucks,Bayer sucks,Siemens sucks,good entertainment

And what are you doing about

And what are you doing about it?

who ever you are you're a

who ever you are you're a genius! lol we hear the same analysis from you guys dozens of times. Does it feed your inflated egos to keep spewing the same old dribble? nothing new here,boring

It's a strange world in

It's a strange world in Siemens-land. They appear to be quite successful in some areas. I see plenty of their equipment all over hospitals in the States. Many of their other products seem to have good reputations. Diagnostics, on the other hand, has been nothing short of a disaster. It started with the purchase itself and as they realized that what they bought was far less than they had thought, things only got worse. They made a big miscalculation with each of the three companies they bought just for starters. They believed Bayer that Advia IMS was almost ready for a successful launch and that any 'issues' would quickly be resolved during the early part of the roll out. They pretty made the same wrong assumption about Vista. And they assumed that they could simply transfer all LA activities to Tarrytown and Llanberis and close LA quickly. They had no back up plan to deal with the errors of each of these key assumptions. They had very little experience in diagnostics which differs from all of their other businesses in that the money is made after the system is sold, leased, or placed. Simple stuff like not internalizing the importance of never being out of stock. If a customer has to wait an extra month or so for an appliance or a train, its an annoyance. If a clinical lab hears about a month out-of-stock, or worse, a method being dropped because it can't be made to specification, it's bye-bye Siemens. They just don't get it and never have. And, of course, they know better and can prove it since may of their other divisions are much more successful. They don't listen and don't even want to try.

And they never bothered to bring in people who knew how to make it all wake and had some experience and a record of accomplishment to show them how to do it correctly. And now they look around and wring their hands as they see it all increasingly turning to excrement.

Don't get your hopes up..its

Don't get your hopes up..its been long proven that Siemens despite vast management (over)resource at its disposal,

Could not organise a p-iss up, in a brewery. Official.

I'm always interested in a

I'm always interested in a good party. Time and place, please?

Samsung is definitely getting

Samsung is definitely getting into diagnostics in a big way.
They already have the basics in place. Siemens had nothing and bought into the field. Samsung is going from the ground up.
Does anyone know of other interested parties out there?

Samsung would be a good fit

Samsung would be a good fit for buying part of Healthcare.
Regardless, DX will have several site closures and a fair number of layoffs as well.
As with Siemens, who many believe purchased DPC for its customer list, the same can be said of Samsung which would have a far better chance of winning back customers than Siemens ever would.
In the Diagnostic arena, Siemens, has burnt it's bridges and those customers that left will not be coming back. Company's, like Roche, will make sure of that.

To any customers reading this

To any customers reading this site, know that your Siemens rep is doing EVERYTHING possible to make sure they hit their numbers, and if that means f*cking you over, then so be it. better you than them.

Looked at what Samsung has

Looked at what Samsung has and was impressed. Would like to have seen some method performance data, but it sure likes they have the basic things down if they want to go into the centralized lab business. Their current reagent packaging looks quite pricey so they might need to reconfigure their reagent presentation for a larger system. After seeing where Samsung is already, I just wonder what buying Siemens would add other than an organizational nightmare and a line of aging products. Whatever it is, this is the first possible buyer that makes some sense to me. Now, let's talk price !!!!

Samsung IVD

Samsung IVD

For Samsung, imaging would

For Samsung, imaging would make sense. Diagnostics? Not that sure since, like Siemens, they'd have to deal with the reagents and I'm not aware that they have any experience there. It's a very different business as Siemens found out.

You miss the point. Samsung has already bought their way into point of care diagnostics:

For Samsung, imaging would

For Samsung, imaging would make sense. Diagnostics? Not that sure since, like Siemens, they'd have to deal with the reagents and I'm not aware that they have any experience there. It's a very different business as Siemens found out. They might want imaging bad enough to take diagnostics as well though, so developing a taste for kimchi wouldn't hurt. It's better than sauerkraut. But not matter what, diagnostics will have trouble surviving unless they get a team in there that knows what they are doing and understands the business, the customers and has a passion for diagnostics itself and not just some meaningless mission statement of quality, caring for the customer, etc.

I would welcome Siemens

I would welcome Siemens selling us (DX) even if it means job losses (possibly mine). At the moment we just feel like the foster child within the happy healthcare family. Mum & Dad have to be polite to us and superficially treat us the same as they do their own kids but you know you are just treading water until you either grow up, run away or they find a permanent adopting family for you. There is no love, no passion just a roof over our head and 3 meals a day.

Whilst mum and dad have aspirations for their birth kids, maybe little Johnny will go to university and become a doctor?

For the foster child they just need to meet their contractually expected level of care and that's it. Remember none of us were 'born' into Siemens family, we were all unceremoniously dumped unloved by our own incapable parents. There is a deep seated lack of feeling of belonging and now we all know the family would rather we went to live somewhere else. Can you imagine how it feels working under that cloud?

Yes, totally agree I think

Yes, totally agree
I think Samsung will tackle Imaging and possibly diagnostics just like it did the television industry.
Samsung already declared they want to be #1 in Imaging by 2020.
I think they can pull it off. I'm betting the Korean business plan will blow Siemens right out of the water.
Siemens German based business plan just was not a good fit for Diagnostics.
So toss the schnitzel and pass the kimchi.

Hmm Samsung is already

Hmm Samsung is already dipping IT'S toe in the point of care pool. Seems TOO me they, or somebody else, might BEE happy to BY a point of care division and leave behind the central lab. Especially considering all the talk on HEAR about how central lab industry is basically mature and less innovative THEN it was 20 years ago, less room FOUR growth. Plenty of room for growth in point of care, and plenty of competition (as was said, customer switching costs are lower). If EWE look at industry averages, year over year growth in point of care is probably double or triple growth in central lab. SEW for an innovative company like Samsung with experience in developing hand-held devices, it could feel like a good fit, ?no?

One distinction between

One distinction between imaging and diagnostics is that imaging does seem to fit into the core competence of Siemens, namely engineering. Diagnostics is different in that most of the money is made from selling chemicals that happen to run on the instruments. The instrument design must take the chemistry needs into account whereas imaging products are pretty much stand alone devices. It is little wonder that Siemens has had so much trouble with reagents ranging from the bungled transfer of reagents from LA to Llanberis, the number of methods withdrawn since they can't make the reagents to specification and then there's their whole FDA problem. So keeping most of healthcare and just selling diagnostics would probably be their preference. Relative to market, they still have a good sized share in imaging and are a fourth place, second tier company in diagnostics.

Its very unlikely.. .but

Its very unlikely.. .but apart from selling someone at the very top has to say OK! we are not going to be made fools of any more, we will do what Siemens are supposed to do, build businesses. Proper investment and a long term plan to take on the market in the future. Get some R&D going for the next generation of healthcare needs.

Sadly I know of several businesses where Siemens have tinkered and when it seemed too hard to do much with or there wasn't a quick buck to be made by just sticking Siemens on the products and charging more... they baled out and dumped it. Siemens don't have the guts for risk or innovation these days which means little hope for DX.

The article in many respects

The article in many respects agrees with you. They are recommending DX be sold off. Problem is it will be hard to find anyone who wants it.
Some company might buy a piece of it just to get the customer base.
Still lots of instruments out there. But, again, the problem is many labs will not be renewing any leasing or component contracts. So time is ticking if another company wants to to take that much of a chance.
I agree it would be in Siemens long term best interest to dump much of Healthcare now, take the loss and stick with engineering.

If you just sit back and look at the past seven years you would be hard-pressed to find another company make as many ill fated decisions and financial loss as Siemens DX. Yes, they are still making some money but absolutely no way near what was envisioned from its inception point.

I think the article is wrong

I think the article is wrong on two counts.

First of all, to call Siemens a peer of Roche is a gross exaggeration, if not an outright lie.

Second, I think Siemens is already at the point where it cannot sell diagnostics as a standalone, or at least at a price that would be considered acceptable. The likelihood of three consecutive bad due diligences are quite low and the world is running out of suckers. LA hardly exists and Tarrytown, once the golden child of the industry, seems to have been jinxed ever since the Whiteheads sold it. And the old DuPont facility that was swallowed by Dade and includes bits and pieces of Behring and Syva, hasn't produced a new system since the 80s. It's just a mess there and, no matter what they did with the books last year, you buy a company for its future, not its past. Siemens will be hard pressed to present a rosy future or a clear path to being competitive with Roche, Abbott, or Beckman/Danaher. That's what's keeping Siemens management sleepless all night. They don't know what to do with this dilemma.

And a third point: P.T. Barnum was probably right, so there is probably a sucker out there to take diagnostics off of Siemens hands. But then ask yourself this one: What are the odds that someone who'd pay top dollar for diagnostics would also have the ability to turn the place around? Who has both the talent and experience and the money?

Bloomberg. March

Bloomberg. March 11,2014

Losing Ground

“We would advise Siemens to follow Johnson & Johnson (JNJ)’s lead and rid itself of a unit requiring major investments to remain competitive against peer Roche,” Kepler Cheuvreux analyst Hans-Joachim Heimbuerger, who recommends buying Siemens shares, said in a Feb. 18 note to clients. “If Siemens fails to react fast, its diagnostics business is likely to lose further ground to peers and may potentially face margin erosion, which would make it a hard-to-sell asset in a few years’ time.”

That pretty much sums it up.
Dump it now or lose more money later.

Siemens has a reasonable

Siemens has a reasonable effective POC offering with truly modern products although its a very narrow range. Its a relatively small fry business compared to the millions at stake in central lab stuff. We are talking capital purchases of a few 10's of $K and a moderate stream of consumable sales. The customer tie in is low and they can change supplier very quickly although mass user training is loathsome so encourages some loyalty. Again Siemens flogged dead horse technology for too long and took too long to get modern products out, in many cases the ship had already sailed.

Also companies like Roche having taken nearly all the central lab business can leverage their other products like POC on the back of that. Siemens loses out again.

A. We are talking HERE, and

A. We are talking HERE, and not HEAR.

B. The more they try to break up diagnostics, the less each piece will be worth unless they have a piece or two, here (not hear) or there (not their or they're) which will fit into an existing diagnostics company and which represents a segment they don't cover. The trend today favors consolidation, both within the lab and among the various manufacturers. Many customers prefer a single vendor for all of their lab needs and don't want to have to deal with a vendor for glucose, another for TSH, and a third for serum rhubarb.

C. My guess is that Siemens will do whatever they have to do to sell whatever they can, again, without thinking about the consequences. If they sell off a 'good' piece, they only make what remains worth less. They have a complete mess on their hands with redundant systems, multiple sites for manufacture and R&D, products for which they cannot provide reagents ... the list goes on and on. The three companies that Siemens bought to make up their DX unit all had some future potential (upgraded Immulite and possibly a new solid phase development, Advia IMS (HA), and Vista (snicker) to sell. Currently, Siemens does not even have that much right now. They would do better trying to sell their can of worms to Star-Kist; Charlie the tuna might like it.

Lots of folks are talking

Lots of folks are talking hear on the msg boards about Samsung as a potential buyer.

From their website, looks like they've got imaging (US and digital X-ray) and just a few diagnostic devices. The ones they have, look more like point-of-care devicses, which fits with Samsung's strength in mobile devices.

Almost all the talk here is about central lab instruments (Centaur, Immulite, Vista) . Siemens DX has a point-of-care unit that doesn't get discussed much one these boards.

For those of you convinced that Siemens will try to divest itself of DX, do you think there is any likelihood that it could be sold off in pieces, e.g. by business unit?

"If you had any real

"If you had any real knowledge, you wouldn't be here on this site, you'd be in a conference room rolling out your strategy and making it happen."

That was the bit that made me laugh out loud, the current Siemens management policy of 'do nothing and hope it all works out by magic' hasn't panned out to well has it?

You don't need 'real knowledge' to know 7 years ago Siemens needed to look properly at what its got, looked at where Roche and such were heading and realised it needed to get things going.. now. An immediate and aggressive program of product development should have started within the first year (before the ability to do so all left).

Then 2 years ago we might have been taking the fight to the competition with new, competitive and attractive products for the future. Timing would have been perfect as many Roche and Abbott customers would have been coming to the end of long contracts and would be up winnable.

Siemens had been 'brave' enough to spend billions buying the 3 companies, I don't understand why they lost their nerve and didn't invest 1 more billion in giving the company the products to succeed.

Meanwhile consolidation of the 3 businesses into one and looking after the current customer base could have continued.

How can I convey how disappointed in being part of Siemens I have been, how frustrated?

When we were told of the takeover we were told it will be good for us, don't worry Siemens don't do old product, they continually develop new product, nothing in the Siemens portfolio is more than just a few years old. Siemens will invest the money in the next generation products the remaining Ziering family didn't have the guts to do so they cashed in.

7 years later..and I am still waiting for it to happen!!!!!!

"To any customer viewing this

"To any customer viewing this - thanks for sticking with us. There are thousands of people making it their mission to validate your choice."

I'm a Kaiser veteran of over 20years. Over the past 5 years we've returned 6 Immulites and 3 Centaurs just from my lab alone. Quite a few more from my and neighboring facilities.
We are a business. Dealing with constant backorders, crashed platforms and a customer service base which is just horrible to deal with has made our decision to terminate much of our business with Siemens DX an easy one.
So let me thank the thousands of DX employee's for validating our decision and having us move to other companies whom respect our business, work with us and believe in the same values we do.
You simply have no idea how badly your company is run.
The best thing your CEO can do is put your Division out of its misery and embarrassment.
Thank you.

"To any customer viewing this

"To any customer viewing this - thanks for sticking with us. There are thousands of people making it their mission to validate your choice."

In case you haven't checked lately, or spoken with your Site Head, DX keeps losing customers each and every quarter and has been for over five years.
The Siemens Diagnostic Division has been a boom for Roche and Beckman.
So, yes, thousands more have validated the truth regarding this ill conceived, horribly run backorder nightmare.
Customers are doing far more than just viewing this thread. Centaur and Immulites are being returned in record numbers and contracts terminated. The latest regarding Immulite was over $5million/year.
So what can be done? Well, you make it sound as if nothing should be changed. Good luck with that.
DX needs a retructuring and competitive instruments. That is currently not the case.
After seven years the Honeymoon is over and its been bloody.
I'm betting on JK taking it all apart and finally cutting off any low performing, low revenue cancer.
Lets see where it goes in May.

I love coming to this site

I love coming to this site and reading all the sackless speculation, and " inside scoops". Funny thing too, if you go onto the other threads involving other companies, you hear the same BS. It's a wonder there is a DX industry at all!

You're all typical of most employees who expertly bitch about a thing, but offer nothing to the solution. If you had any real knowledge, you wouldn't be here on this site, you'd be in a conference room rolling out your strategy and making it happen.

To any customer viewing this - thanks for sticking with us. There are thousands of people making it their mission to validate your choice.


If DX is an albitross, its a

If DX is an albitross, its a profitable albitross. Not as profitable as imaging, but more profitable than many others sectors/divisiions within Siemens.

Note the point in the Bloomberg article: healthcare (yes, imaging, dx, and hearing aids) are now underrvalued cuz of the conglomerate discount. Spinning them out would increase their valuation.

Even DX alone would have a higher valuation if spun off.

After a decade of not closing

After a decade of not closing sites and not consolidating, there is little reason to believe that Siemens DX will suddenly be confronted by an angel from on high who will transform their thinking or ability to act. Most M&A activity results in almost immediate action to consolidate, close extraneous sites, and eliminate duplication is an almost ruthless manner. The theory is to have the bloodletting happen quickly and efficiently, reduce the company to a manageable size, and then start to move on. Siemens, in contrast has done virtually nothing along these lines. They have let their acquisitions run them instead of vice versa. After a decade it is not just about site closings; it's about having a strategy and plan and Siemens DX seems to have neither. They just seem to drift with the tides. As for combining imaging with DX for sale as an incentive to take DX off their hands, the concept boggles the mind. It is roughly the equivalent of trying to sell a truckload of prime filet mignon on the condition that the buyer also take a few railroad cars full of rotten fruit. Even the companies that Siemens bought (DPC, Bayer, and Dade) all had things to offer that, at the time looked potentially attractive. Siemens DX seems to have zero to offer to anyone right now and would only be an albatross around the necks of anyone who would even consider buying imaging.

That's exactly the

That's exactly the point.
Diagnostics is mixed into Healthcare along with Imaging as well.
Selling Diagnostics by itself is a losing battle. Nobody wants it. To be saddled with Immulite, Centaur and Vista and all the backorder issues from here to Llanberis is a fools game.
They would need to add Imaging as a carrot. I would not be all surprised if Samsung puts a bid in just to get the Imaging Division.
Regardless, even if JK does nothing he'll need to, at the very least, consolidate down the DX Division. Way too many sites. Several of these sites have minimal personal to begin with.
There are so many cost cutting events he can take advantage of that MR refuses to do. Putting MR in charge of DX was also a mistake. No vision, no future.

There is a big difference

There is a big difference between diagnostics and healthcare. It appears that some of the posts here are confusing the two and need to be a bit more specific. It appears that within healthcare, Siemens has both good and bad pieces. Ideally, Siemens would love to divest itself of the bad pieces, such as diagnostics and, at the same time, retain the good pieces such as imaging. That puts Siemens in a difficult position since prospective buyers would want the good with the bad. Right now, it is not clear that diagnostics alone could be a self-sustaining business; it is far more likely that anyone (either a new owner or Siemens) will still have to invest a lot into the business before it can be turned around (if it can be turned around at all at this point). R&D would need to be re-staffed if there is ever to be a hope of developing a new system (not just an upgrade as Trinidad appears to be). Service needs to be completely turned around and having multiple systems of multiple origins in the field won't make that task easy either. And in order to turn diagnostics around, they will need to revamp whatever they have in the way of a long term strategy planning and business development department. Siemens, or a new owner, will need to find experienced people in all of these areas and put together a new team if there is ever going to be a chance for diagnostics to recover and return to where it was in 2005.

Can Siemens sell of the chaff and still retain the wheat? Hard to know, but one would think that selling diagnostics alone would require a bargain basement price. The talk of selling all of healthcare may simply reflect the difficulty is just selling the losers like diagnostics without the winners like imaging.

Like this

Like this article:

Seems a bit balanced, including a minimal arguement against selling it off:

While an IPO or spinoff could unlock value and health care may not fit Siemen’s engineering roots, losing the division’s higher profit margins would dilute the overall company’s profitability.

'If you’ve a long-term interest in a robust business model which can cope with numerous cyclical business, then as a shareholder you should want to retain a certain conglomerate character to the business,” said Boris Boehm, who helps manage about 1.4 billion euros, including Siemens shares, at Aramea Asset Management. “In the short-term it could solve problems, but then what remains left over?'

Would encourage folks who post about "analysts say" to include links.

Same article says they may just spin off the hearing aid division.... Stay Tuned.

"still in the black making

"still in the black making money,positive cash flow for Siemens"

True. But the money being made is so far below where Siemens thought they would be seven years into this venture. Did they ever recoup the $13B cost in the first place?
Analysts are also suggesting the cashflow for DX is simply not worth the bang for the buck and advise JK to sell now. At the very least to "spin" it off.
Trinidad is still set for a 2017 release but don't expect any miracle instrument. DX might crumble before then.
Imaging is the only Healthcare golden child. That is also in danger now that Samsung has thrown down the glove and announced it will be #1 in Imaging by 2020. I believe them.

Maybe they are making money,

Maybe they are making money, but if so, why all of the talk about divesting DX? My guess is that they aren't making enough relative to the investment and their assessment of risk. And after all that they lost in market share, one might think they had plenty of room to grow and recover lost customers. If they do, they sure are keeping it a big secret. Some posts here suggest that Trinidad won't be introduced until 2017. And if things like poor service, inadequate customer 'stroking' by sales people, reagent backorders or deletions from catalogs continue or are not corrected, it will just be harder to turn things around with a new system like Trinidad unless it is, in some way, revolutionary. And, even so, would you buy a system if you thought you'd have issues with on time delivery of reagents? Would you buy one if you thought some tests might be discontinued (without much notice) in the future.

Given the decade long record of Siemens DX management, you would need a ton of faith to believe they will turn things around. Despite the blank ink, Siemens is clearly unhappy with the status quo. And Siemens doesn't like being number four in a four horse race. The black ink is much more important as a sales tool to try to sell DX than it is to Siemens' balance sheet.

still in the black making

still in the black making money,positive cash flow for Siemens

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