Siemens DX Agenda 2013

In a last ditch effort, Siemens, is having a huge garage sale of its Diagnostic lines in an effort to cut the major losses it's been having the past 7 years. Vista's, Centaur's and Immulites at bargain basement deals.
Apparently they haven't learnt any lessons.
Where do you think it's all going this year?

I'm not sure that you can

I'm not sure that you can compare profitability between sectors since many companies have different profitability goals for each sector depending on perceived risk; the higher the risk, the higher the expected profit margin. For those who think DX should be retained, they should not expect a quick turnaround given than Trinidad is still in development and hasn't been shown publically and apparently isn't scheduled for release until 2017. So far there is no indication that Trinidad will be much more than an upgrade with possibly more integration and perhaps higher throughput than current Dimension family systems. In the meantime, Siemens has to improve their reputation which is pretty bad out in the field. They need to do whatever it takes to make their service a model for the industry rather than the joke. They need to ensure on time delivery of consumables and virtually eliminate out-of-stock situations, let alone recalls or any more FDA actions. And none of those things will contribute to the bottom line (in a positive way), so if they are going to keep DX, they have to accept some of those realities. Of course, anyone who would buy DX needs to pretty much accept the same realities.

And they have some longer term decisions as well. If Trinidad is an upgrade they need to decide of upgrades are their future or if they want an R&D capacity for innovation and to be able to bring truly improved technology to market. I don't believe they have that capability today. They need to figure out what they will need in terms of chemists for product improvement, new product development, new analyte development, and technical support to service.

There are many things Siemens needs to work out even if they simply want to try to sell DX, which given the above, won't be easy. I would be quite (pleasantly) surprised if the big announcement addresses most of these strategic issues either directly or indirectly. Do they have a roadmap to success and do they want to share it with the troops so everyone is on board?

Stay tuned .....

May 7 is also when the next

May 7 is also when the next quarterlie financials are released and call with investors etc. So its the usual time for 'forward-looking statments'

Some analysts want to see DX sold. Others want it to see it kept, since DX is more profitable than several of the sectors. Will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

Some divisions will be

Some divisions will be tweaked and others face extensive changes. Analysts have already advised JK to dump most of Healthcare (mainly Diagnostics). Remains to be seen if he follows their advice.

JK is doing a global webcast

JK is doing a global webcast announcement of the future of Siemens post 2014 on May 7th 4pm CEST. Could be tweaks, or could be major.. wait and see I guess.

"Buying into diagnostics was

"Buying into diagnostics was a mistake for Siemens from the beginning. They excel in engineering which made Imaging a good fit. But diagnostics? Big money loser for them."

One could say exactly the same about GE Buying Amershame. Busily ripping it apart because it knows not the business.

And Heaven knows what Carlisle was thinking of when it bought O-CD. Dunkin' Donuts and a DX business? Excellent fit.

Any thoughts on which sites

Any thoughts on which sites might be finally shutdown?
The thought of another platform coming out (Trinidad) while Siemens still peddles three "bricks" (Centaur, Vista and Immulite) is a wonder at how this company actually stays afloat.

The sale of Microscan may be

The sale of Microscan may be bad news for the parts of DX that Siemens acquired almost 10 years ago. The best hope for getting a decent offer for ex-Bayer or ex-Dade is for them to be bundled with more successful parts of healthcare. But if the more valuable ones are sold off in bits and pieces, it leaves less and less to bundle with and make the package attractive.

they have offers for

they have offers for MICROSCAN

Any leaks regarding the May

Any leaks regarding the May 8th announcement?

Is there a big shot in

Is there a big shot in Flanders, AG who briefly worked in Tarrytown in the late 80's? The way you will know him is that he has lots of meetings, talks a lot about the various issues, and when you ask yourself what he said of substance, you realize most of what he says is virtually meaningless, but great sounding at the time, rambling. If there is an AG at Flanders who fits any of the above, then you can pretty much be assured that nothing will get done in any area for which he holds responsibility. He was completely ineffective in Tarrytown at the end of the Cooper era and beginning of the Bayer years and there is no reason he will magically become of any use now other than his sole talent of being able to string management along and make them believe that progress is happening.

For any management reading these threads, I'd be extremely careful in dealing with such an individual. His only value to you would be if you want someone to drive the final nails into your diagnostics coffin.

Recent history had no

Recent history had no upgrades for Immulite. Any upgrades were cancelled years ago and as many as 30 kits were already pulled from its menu.
No DPC original teams are left and I'm talking about the ones with brains. Trinidad is years away from hitting the marketplace. All four Siemens divisions will have announced changes on May 8. How and why they've kept three dying platforms on life-support has been a major financial issue someone had to explain to JK.
One thing is certain, Roche is loving every minute of this.
As far as getting customers back...would you go back.
Definitely not for my labs money. We gave back 6 Immulites.
Siemens DX is a write-off.

A lot of the future depends

A lot of the future depends on whether Trinidad is a collection of old capabilities packaged together with a new skin, or a truly new system. As I understand Flanders, most of their recent history has been in upgrading Immulite. If Trinidad is just an upgrade, Flanders experience and expertise could be useful assuming that Siemens allows them to operate as they did in the entrepreneurial culture of DPC. This all assumes that the old team is still together and well led. There are a lot of 'ifs' and assumptions in order to believe that Trinidad would be available earlier than currently planned.

On the other hand, if Trinidad is truly new or has significant re-design, or even something like an entire new software package, recent industry history suggests that 2017 is probably a bit of a long shot. Siemens has really yet to get anything major right in diagnostics making optimism even more wishful thinking than anything else.

A fair analysis. Perhaps

A fair analysis. Perhaps Trinidad won't take so long, its possible Flanders are involved and they have track record of aggressive development. Siemens has already migrated from its dire Bayer automation to a newer one as used by Abbott in preparation for the rebirth of its offering.

Winning customers back could be tricky. Siemens policy in the face of constant loss was to consolidate its larger customers at all cost, they get whatever they want, but know of course Siemens are pulling their chain. The rest were given up on and neglected. Some have not seen or heard from a rep in many years.

Meanwhile Abbott were on the return.

The wider is issue is the real money maker 'Healthcare' in real terms Imaging faces every harder competition, I suspect Siemens has as many concerns about its long term sustainability as it does about Diagnostics.

I've heard the same thing

I've heard the same thing about 2017 and a new platform release. Problem is the company has changed dramatically since they started working on Trinidad. A new CEO is in place and I seriously doubt JK wants to make the same mistakes at PL.
Buying into diagnostics was a mistake for Siemens from the beginning. They excel in engineering which made Imaging a good fit. But diagnostics? Big money loser for them.
I don't think DX can survive till 2017 let alone introduce a new platform while still trying to peddle Immulite, Vista or Centaur.
But watching what they've done the past 7 years it would not surprise me.

2017? That's a long way off

2017? That's a long way off and it is hard to recall that a new system, three years out, has ever made it on time. If the plan is for 2017 today, then you can figure 2018 or 2019 are more realistic dates (other than some very slow, limited rollout). Also, the industry standard is that when a system is 3 years from launch, it is shown to a few customers privately or even shown in some form at shows like AACC.

Moreover, in order to recapture old business and pick up new business, the system will need to significantly exceed existing competitive products either in performance, reliability, ease-of-use, and/or cost. Performance is unlikely to be a key driver here since there are all sorts of standards of performance to which any legitimate competitor must adhere, and, with the exception of a very few tests, being a lot better than the standard is not of much value to the customer. Reliability must pretty much be state of the art relative to the competition and probably needs to reach that level within 6-12 months after launch (a few growing pains will be tolerated by customers, although they can influence the pace of launch). Ease of use is important as the skill level of customer operators continues to decline and more and more functions come under system control. Siemens will need to have some strong interactions with customers, especially direct users, to ensure they meet or exceed the convenience of existing products. And then there is cost. It is not clear that Siemens is really working on cost reduction to the extent that they can pass the savings on to customers.

Given all of the above, it is not easy to envision Siemens getting back to the market share they had in year one.

Losses will continue with their existing business. It would be in Siemens best interest to divest healthcare or, at least, diagnostics but who would buy a company that is bleeding and likely to keep bleeding for a minimum of 3-5 years? And on top of that, Siemens must convince any potential buyer that Trinidad is truly a path to regain significant market share when there are few opportunities to be significantly better than Roche, Beckman/Danaher, or Abbott.

And if Trinidad falters ...............

In May the overall Siemens

In May the overall Siemens plan for DX and other divisions will be announced.
What I do know is basically related to Tarrytown and what we've been told.
Siemens DX is putting a major portion of its eggs in "Trinidad". This platform is being worked on here and a few other sites with a major "big push".
The current rumored game plan, as some in management have mentioned, is for a 2017 release in conjuction with shutting down the Immulite line the same time.
Siemens does realize long term sales for Immulite, Centaur and Vista is a losing proposition.
Trinidad, in Siemens eyes, is suppose to help level the playing field and try to get back some of the customers it lost to Roche and others.
Apparently Centaur and Immulite still have major backorder issues. Joe K. might be changing the timeline next month.
Several analyst have already advised him to dump most of Healthcare sooner rather than later.

Perhaps. But with

Perhaps. But with consolidation in the industry, the price keeps going up. And, in this case, the whole is worth a lot less than the parts at the time of purchase which means either Siemens will need to find a really big sucker or take a loss. They will then need to find a way to say that stopping the bleeding represented victory.

The other problem is that there are fewer and fewer suckers. Anyone who, for instance, casually goes over what happened to Tarrytown under the Bayer and Siemens regimes, will start to see a big problem. Since Bayer took over, the closest thing they had to a successful new product was Immuno 1, and even there, Bayer felt it necessary to buy Centaur to carry them into the future. That's roughly 25 years and essentially no new products. And not much has really come out from Dade that is new. Vista still seems to be struggling. How much of a sucker will it take to pay anything near what Siemens needs as a minimum? Bayer bought Technicon on the promise of two Japanese manufactured chemistry systems, H*3, and Immuno 1. Siemens bought Technicon on the future of Centaur plus Advia IMS. If Siemens is selling now, what do they have in the pipeline to lure a buyer?

It's quite a dilemma.

BAYER was naïve,Siemens was

BAYER was naïve,Siemens was naïve, they is always a sucker

back to the future,microscan

back to the future,microscan will be sold,rest of mm phased out,poc and hhs product lines within one bu with cai leading the way

Hmmmm. Let's see. They

Hmmmm. Let's see. They overpaid for three companies. They failed to integrate them. They failed to close down unwanted sites. The two ready-to-launch products they thought they had bought (Advia IMS and Vista) have been failures; one is only a distant memory for the historians. Most of their technical experts have either left on their own or been laid off. There have been significant manufacturing issues in both Massachusetts and Llanberis. Market share had dropped significantly since day one.

So question one is: What is it that they actually think they have that's worth selling.

On the buyer side, Siemens was completely fooled as a result of a poor due diligence. Strangely enough, so was Bayer when they bought Technicon from Cooper and again, involving ready-to-go system less ready than expected and ultimately failed. But Bayer spent almost a billion dollars to create the Advia IMS illusion and then found sucker in Siemens to buy it.

So question two is: Who in the world would be so naïve as to buy Siemens diagnostics when they apparently have nothing really new in the pipeline other than a redesigned skin.

These, and other questions, will be answered on our next episode of 'As the Anaylzer Churns'.

DX would have been sold were

DX would have been sold were it not for the fact they overpaid for that dog, Dade-behring. Germans are not pleased they were scammed...holding on to save face.
Trimming down to show more profit...Molecular is only first step.

Don't think Flanders will

Don't think Flanders will have anything to do with Trinidad AKA reskinned (again) unreliable Centaur.

I think it has something to

I think it has something to do with Trinidad.
Anyone out there with more information?

Could just be inflating

Could just be inflating things in order to sell DX off. Siemens bought most of DX based on over optimism and hype by the sellers. If they are selling based on some new system about which there have been many rumors, it would look very strange if they weren't gearing up for production even if the system isn't as ready as they claim.

Yet through all this, the

Yet through all this, the Flanders, NJ expansion is going full speed ahead. It's hard to tell from outside, but it looks like the instrument production facility is at least doubling in size. They must plan on something being done there, although self-delusion seems to be a prime Siemens trait.

We have now entered the

We have now entered the twilight zone. All those facilities dead. And someone in Korea wants to buy a dead company. So either the Korean deal is just another hollow rumour or someone, somewhere sees some value in one or more of the pieces that comprise Siemens DX.

If you read other threads you will note that many companies are saying the same thing, especially about R&D. All of those departments are dying, but more due to lack of need to develop new tests (there just aren't that many coming along each year now) than a pure cost cutting decision by bean counters. Most of the major players make fairly similar products with fairly similar performance, so the market is driven by product cost, product reliability, and product user convenience (especially important due to the declining skill level of customer operators and even other supposedly more skilled positions in customer labs). Diagnostics is struggling through the transition between a high growth business to a more stable, slow growth business. It's a tough adjustment to make in any industry, but the presence of owners like Siemens and Danaher, in particular, makes it even more difficult since neither really seems to understand the business at all.

For those looking for the excitement of a growth, thriving business, I strongly suggest you look outside of the current diagnostics industry. Even the reasonably competent companies like Roche and Abbott, who have some understanding of the business, are not pouring large amounts of money into novel areas, at least not directly. It is much smart for companies to partner with likely winners in new areas (think DNA testing, assuming a viable, paid for market ever really develops to an extent that justifies development costs) than it is to assemble their own staff. So look to companies that are partnering with the big boys as one option. Even if your expertise is more in development than research, you offer practical experience in terms of what will actually work technically, what will work from a manufacturing point of view, and from a customer point of view.

Even in the face of a changing business status, there are plenty of opportunities for those who are willing to do some homework, present the strengths of their experience, and dare to make the leap.

The protein chemistry is a

The protein chemistry is a total joke in walpole. The FDA is too dumb to realize all the violations. In buffers and wetcakes- with bogus stability engineering.

Actually they are already

Actually they are already dead and don't knowit yet. Like a tick on a dog with a flea and tick collar. Still suckingblood but saturated with pesticide intracellularly.
Tarrytown dead--
walpole dead
--cal dead eng dead
dx to asia---

DX to a Korean company

DX to a Korean company

It wasn't Bayer and Siemens

It wasn't Bayer and Siemens that killed Tarrytown. Just one name comes to mind when it comes to Tarrytown's demise: DS, the systems engineer, was the most destructive person to ever work in Tarrytown, ruining both many projects and many careers. There is a direct relationship between the power the DS had and the failure of R&D to produce successful products.

Bayer drove the final nail in

Bayer drove the final nail in the coffin of Tarrytown as a developer of diagnostics systems. Much like Siemens, not a single new system came out of Tarrytown during the Bayer years. The spent millions on Advia IMS and knew early on that it was going to fail. They 'managed' clinical chemistry from a 30 % market share to a 5 % share. Then, just to make sure, they made sure they got rid of just about every talented person in R&D, to ensure that Tarrytown would never rise again.

And much like Bayer, Siemens has done nothing to grow the business but has 'managed' it from first to fourth (and last among the major companies). No new systems either. And still trying to recover from the shock of learning that Advia IMS and Dade Vista were not ready for prime time. One system is dead, and the other never became a significant factor in the marketplace. Nine years into it and they are still dealing with basic integration and consolidation issues. It's just incredible.

Have they actually made a formal announcement of Plan 2014 - "Unsere Zukunft in der Phantasie"


Bayer was not good

Bayer was not good

It's a new year. Can't wait

It's a new year. Can't wait to hear what Siemens DX Agenda 2014 looks like. More failures? Still no new products. A sale to ????? (don't seem to be a lot of takers around). Maybe free Chinese lessons for all employees (a hint of things to come?).

Maybe plans for a big celebration party next year marking ten years of Siemens in 2016? The way Siemens works, it will take them over a year just to plan for such a celebration.

Just don't expect too much from a company that seems not to be able to even spell the word 'strategy' let alone have a coherent, or any other, one. Even the nastiest cynic could not have predicted how badly Siemens has managed diagnostics.

Just a lot of pity and sympathy for all of the good employees from Dade, DPC, and Bayer who were either laid off, fired, left on their own, or had to stay and watch the decent companies they worked for be ruined by a combination of incompetence and ignorance.

Anyone who has ever watched a

Anyone who has ever watched a disaster relief effort understands the two phases: first is rescue, and then, after it is believed that all the survivors have been rescued, the next stage is recovery.

Sending the rescue squad out months after a disaster has occurred is a futile effort. After almost a decade of mismanagement, it is hard to believe that the Trinidad rescue squad will accomplish much, especially if rumours about what Trinidad really is, are true. Siemens DX doesn't just need a so-called new product; it needs a complete corporate makeover.

Trinidad to the rescue

Trinidad to the rescue

Most potential buyers

Most potential buyers wouldn't touch DX with a ten foot pole. There might be a buyer who just wants to bleed the company to death. There might be a buyer who is very naïve and DX will continue to spiral down. And there is just a tiny chance that a buyer will appear that actually has a plan that includes recruiting the right people to get DX going and who probably knows and understands the whole business.

What are the chances of the latter occurring?

you are an idiot .....look at

you are an idiot .....look at the garage sale that will occur in several months. including all of DX on the block. All of it is on the table.

Mobile freak is back again.

Mobile freak is back again. Glad to see you're still alive and still obsessed as ever. Your personal problems are of no interest to us. However, if you feel compelled to keep posting, could you please add a bit of humour in order to improve the entertainment value of your pitiful saga?



(Was I able to sneak that one by the censors?)

How long does it take until

How long does it take until the SE Region realizes that you have to see and hear by yourself, not have one female "show" you things?

Little former Mobile has "seen" and "heard" all by herself her whole life.

Shame shame, all the other did was remind her of something she already knew by the time she was 9 months old, that's 28 years behind.

Most of the talent in R&D

Most of the talent in R&D that made the individual companies what they were at one time, is long gone. Much was gone before Siemens even started their acquisitions and more has gone over the past several years. It is doubtful that Siemens currently has the critical mass to develop a new system even combining all of their R&D sites. They don't have enough people who have been through the process successfully and know what's really involved. At bset, they can come up with another product line extension that integrates the best of what they already have. But it will still be an old Dimension, Vista, Centaur with a few bells and whistles (or not as in the case of Gen-a-mess). And if that is the best they can do, their long term future doesn't seem bright.

Once you lose the talent and experience and history of success, you also lose all the things those people know that are not written down in some notebook And it just can't be recreated out of thin air.

It's kind of difficult to

It's kind of difficult to grow when 2 big R&D centers had major product development disasters. So much for Siemens trying to balance risk when both Dade and Bayer were equally incompetent. Growth prospects in Europe are now 0% due to a new continental-wide recession. Even Asia is having problems with China facing a real estate collapse on top of a slowing manufacturing sector. Japan is entering a recession. The US pretends everything is improving when there are clear signs of fubdamental deterioration such as people dropping out of the workforce because they cannot find work. And so the noose tightens around Siemens future business prospects.

I have been reading all

I have been reading all comments in this blog I live in Mexico and I just can tell that the same situation is happening here, Siemens came and bought a succesful DX companies and incredibly and slowly
It has been destroying it. Our people if they aren´t fired they are migrating to other companies like Roche, abbott, beckman coulter.

The cash cow concept for

The cash cow concept for Immulite was actually a well thought out basic strategy if you think about its rationale. The problem is that even a cash cow needs to be managed properly as does its transition from growth product to cash cow. Siemens did not have a clue as to how to do this and how to shut down LA which was an integral part of the plan. They seemed totally lost when it came to transfer of technology and manufacturing from one site to another.

Both the Bayer and Dade components had developed processes from transferring complex manufacturing procedures, yet their expertise was barely used. LA is still open and the cash cow is delivering sour cream. A useful product, but it does tend to clog the reagent lines. The failure to maximize the potential benefit of a large installed base of Immulite systems is symptomatic of their entire to understand some of the unique aspects of diagnostics. And they don't even seem to have a clue as to where to turn for some real, practical, ways to fix things. The experts they hire only give them pre-canned, generalized, politically correct solution options and usually recommend the one in the middle.

Good planning, but terrible execution.

True, Tarrytown isn't what it

True, Tarrytown isn't what it use to be.
Nothing really new in development. Basically we're in patch and fix mode for either Centaur or Immulite.
Way too many reagent issues...and most of those who knew how to fix a problem have left for greener pastures or were part of layoff.
Centaur is still doing reasonably well. The "cash cow" philosophy of purchasing Immulite definitely didn't pan out. More like a dead cow now. The people working on it at this site have basically given up on a handful of kits already.
I've heard the layoff rumor as well but we've dodged so many bullets the past seven years I'm hopeful this one will just come and go.

Any other sites hear anything?

Apparently it was also going

Apparently it was also going around other sites including Flanders and LA.
Just have to wait and see.

Any detail on departments to

Any detail on departments to be affected? The building appears pretty empty right now. The largest occupier of space, R&D, seems completely dead with no signs of anything that resembles past days when new systems were being developed and older ones supported and enhanced. Not a single sign of any enthusiasm. Wtih no new producs to sell, sounds like marketing and sales aren't exactly overworked. If you think about it, other than basic business and support services such as legal, regulatory, QA central, etc. it is almost impossible to see what the rest of Tarrytown is delivering to the bottom line. None of the existing departments can be completely eliminated, but without anything major going on, it sounds like alot of consolidation could be accomplished.

All of this lmost makes one wonder why Siemens wouldn't be looking for a smaller facility, even it's a new one they lease for the short term and it's nearby. Lot's of possibilities, including that the rumour, like so many before it, is false.

New Rumor going around

New Rumor going around Tarrytown has another layoff scheduled around summertime. Apparently the bean counters think most sites have much too many people for the amount of work being generated.
Has anyone else heard this?

Yes, it is. Mine is smaller,

Yes, it is. Mine is smaller, more compact, and infinitely more efficient. So much for those who still believe that size is everything and that bigger is always better.

my point • is bigger than

my point • is bigger than yours.

If Siemens Dx is a house of

If Siemens Dx is a house of cards then why don't they fall? In the meantime they are destroying the market in an attempt to make sales at any price. They are waddling around like penguins with their pricing around their ankles. What is the point of sales if you make no margin to cover your overheads and make no money for shareholders?

The other Siemens divisions must be spewing at the poor performance of Dx.
What will it take for Siemens corporate to say "Enough is enough,
Diagnostics be gone"

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